Using Behavior Intelligence to Better Sales and Communication feat. Ben Bressington

Narrator 0:00
You’re listening to the off systems go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot. Learn how to deploy automated marketing and sell systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of automation bridge, Chris Davis.

Chris Davis 0:33
Welcome everybody to another edition, another episode of The all systems go podcast where we invite startup founders and digital marketers alike to discuss strategies and software used to build automated marketing and sales systems at scale. I’m your host, Chris L. Davis, the founder of automation bridge. And today, our guest is Ben Bressington. And he’s a speaker off an author of multiple books. With the latest book, people ignorant unlocking success, confidence and influence. He Ben has a law and criminal degree from Australia and spent 10 years helping fortune 100 companies apply gamification principles to their sales and communication process. If that didn’t just kind of pique your interest everybody, somebody gamifying

Chris Davis 1:30
with a criminal and law background, just that’s just a precursor of what you have in store today. And now he spends his time helping people improve their sales conversions or conversations, specifically helping people close deals faster and discover hidden opportunities. In our daily communication. We’re going to talk about behavior intelligence and how you can use it to close more deals and close faster. Ben’s here to do it. Ben, welcome to the podcast How you doing?

Ben Bressington 2:03
Man, I am in the presence of a rockstar. Like I feel like nervous like meeting the queen or something like I’m like, oh my god, this is Chris like Damn.

Chris Davis 2:14
I’m a mere mortal man, mere mortal. And I am. So this is the good thing about the podcast is I get to interview people with a respect for me. And then I mutually get to give that respect back. Because the platform that you’ve built and are continuing to expand is is so unique, so unique, like none other and I can’t wait to talk about it. But But first and foremost, we know you’ve got the criminal criminology and law background, we know you’ve been helping sales, I mean, fortune 100 companies with their gamification and making sure that the sales process is shortening. What were your humble beginnings? Like? Were you always into sales? Did you know that this is going to be the end? Or were you did you start off somewhere else and life just instructed you down this path?

Ben Bressington 3:05
Man, I sucked at sales. I sucked at sales and communication in general. Like it’s why I love technology. And like everything I have has a technology bent to it because like I am much happier behind the screen behind building the systems like for many, many years, I was the guy behind the scenes. Building the 30,000 member community launching 300 Plus apps like doing that was great because you know what? And why I got in an internet marketing was because I’m like, I got sold the dream if you don’t got to talk to nobody, I might you know what, I don’t like talking to nobody. So you know what, but what they don’t tell you? Is that like, that’s the dream. The reality is all day long. All you do is talk to people. Yes. Yes. So yeah, there’s been a massive evolution of that roller coaster because I started as literally an introvert who struggled to have a connect a conversation with anybody. And even today, like, I have to catch myself, like I can be the speaker on at the event. I’ll walk into the room. I’m still nervous. I’m still like just watching people like, because I can analyze people and whatever. But I’ve got to like, I’ve got to hype myself up to go introduce myself. If someone introduces me, we’re talking, but I’ve got to introduce myself. I’m like Gameface on let’s go like Let’s rock this and for a lot of people it’s hard. They don’t know those little hacks to even do that type of stuff. But yeah, does that make sense?

Chris Davis 4:32
Yeah, Spoken like a true introvert that needed a framework to be an extrovert

Ben Bressington 4:39
directly out and like I love being around what’s weird is I love being around people and I feed off that but man I hit I hit this point in the evening where I hit my like, I hit my word quota smash your I’m done. And then I’ll just literally like an irish exit as they call it like just out so quit. Bingo. Yeah, yeah, no, that’s

Chris Davis 5:02
good I, I would say I share the same sentiments, I started out, I call myself a ninja a lot of the times because you just don’t see me. It’s like, it’s something’s happening, things are getting done, but you just don’t see the guy that’s doing it. And I took pride in that. And as you mature as a business owner and entrepreneur, you start to realize that if you’re going to be behind the scenes like that, then somebody has to be out front. And a lot of times, that’s not an easy decision. And most of times, if you have the ability to do sales, you should. And I guess that brings us to where we’re at, where what was the point been for you where you started to read the fine? What sales was because initially, you had to have a bad relationship with it, because you wanted to stay away from it. And then something shifted, what was that shift when you start to understand it? Better?

Ben Bressington 6:00
Yeah, so like, when you attempting sales, you don’t close the deal for six months, you kind of realize like, yeah, it’s not working. And most people go, You know what, it’s the lead, it’s a lead, and I did that, like everybody else is the lead suck, man

Ben Bressington 6:16
that leads suck, blame marketing. And then

Ben Bressington 6:19
like off, yeah, after you’ve done like three different completeleads ventures type thing, and you go, you know what, there’s a commonality in all of these businesses, and it ain’t the leads. It’s a tough pill to swallow of, like, maybe I’m doing something wrong. And like, I had the privilege of doing some work with Jordan Belfort and stuff like that, and advising those guys with some of the things they did. So I had access to like, those systems. And when I went through them, to me, they just felt so unnatural. And I always felt like the resistance, or that pressure I was putting on people was uncomfortable, because it’s an uncomfortable conversation. And what I wasn’t aware of is that like, I didn’t know at that point in time, but the data science now shows that the resistance you create linguistically or even through body language is felt through the other person, and that’s why they’ll ghost you. Like, you get off the call gone. That was fantastic. Yeah. And then you get ghosted, you know, but I swear that guy was like, a solid for a deal, right? Like, and so you really have to analyze, like, what am I saying? And how am I saying and when that creates this whole rabbit hole in itself? Right? Because at the time, no one had clear answers. So it’s like, how do I? How do I understand language? How do I understand body language? How do I understand myself? Yeah. And like, that’s the whole personal development rabbit hole. Right?

Chris Davis 7:44
And I would so let me jump on this train here. Do you feel like the more you invested in personal development and began to understand even your own wiring, the easier it was to understand sales in its in its proper context? Or did you have a particular mentor that that made it clear? What What was that for you?

Ben Bressington 8:08
Um, it’s a mix of approach, both. And a lot of the mentors are set in their way or their system, or their framework that they operate under the real world, right? So you have to also be aware of that, like, because I’ve had some amazing mentors, who were great at the content, but they delivered it like they’re educating a lecture hall at a university. And I, the one question I always ask is, like, Great, how do I implement that? Not the theory behind that? How do I apply it to the conversation I’m about to have or the pitch I’m about to make? Or you want me to go master body language, and there’s 110 variables? And that’s going to take me at least 12 months to do? And like, what are the three I need to pay attention to on this call? Yeah, because those like, and what I realized is you don’t have to go like PHD deep on a lot of this stuff. You just have to understand how to use it in the dynamics of a conversation. And when you can do that life changes for a lot of people. And this is where a lot of people get lost on like, they’ll go into NLP. So then they do all the NLP certifications. And they’ll do all these all these personality type assessments stuff. And I’m like, great. So can you identify a personality? Oh, yeah, I just I, you have to give me a whole lot of variables. Or I could ask them 20 questions, I might know you should be able to deal with two questions, or you should be able to do just based on an assumption. What do you mean? Like you’re the Certified Trainer? Like? What do you mean? What do you mean?

Chris Davis 9:40
That’s what I mean. Does that make sense? Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So go ahead, keep going. Keep going.

Ben Bressington 9:48
Yeah, so I know before we got on the call, we’re talking about the sales process and like, there’s a whole lot of that people don’t understand, I understand that history continues to repeat itself, even if you’re not aware of your own history. If you don’t learn from the mistakes and learn the real lessons, you’ll continue to make the mistakes. I made the mistakes when I was looking for business partners and all that type of stuff, right? And when you look back, like the AIDA method, like AIDA a lot of how a lot of sales trainers or people write their sales copy and things like that. But when you ask the question of when was this created? Who was this created for? Most people never asked those type of questions. Right. And when I looked it up, it was like 1846 that was created for for the consumers back in 1846. Right? Do you think consumer attention and interest has changed since 1846? changed in the last 10 years? Right? And I’m sure you know, with your system automation stuff you have to do, how you automate the system is I know, it’s similar, but it’s not exactly the same as 10 years ago, is it?

Chris Davis 10:52
Correct? Oh, man, it is 10 years ago was practically non existent. You know, technology has just moved so fast, the processes have always been there. But watch this been, let’s have the same conversation 10 months from now, and it will even be different. You know,

Ben Bressington 11:11
yeah, it’d be how you consume, like, even now we’re looking at how we’re consuming the content you’re creating. I know that the research shows that most buyers want somewhere upwards of 18 hours of content to be consumed, before a buying decision is made, right? That’s what the data now shows, right? Just for consumption. And like, if you’re a business owner, you have to think about, well, look, how am I using that content? And how am I delivering it multi dimensionally. But one of the things that always fascinated me is like, I’m like, well, who’s ever asked the question of how do I need to change the delivery of the content based on the personality type. And when you think of that, you’re like, Holy Jesus, because now in my CRM, I can automate different emails based on the four personality types. And I’m not even talking about 16 personalities you like because like, I’m an Australian guy, like, it’s simple. I like my beer and my shrimp on the barbie, right? Like, we keep these things simple. So the thing is, is four is more than enough for you to be more than dangerous and effective. And if you do that, like you’ll start to transform your life. So automation doesn’t even have to be that complicated. But it can be the results just compound. And that’s what’s important.

Chris Davis 12:23
Yeah, I have to say everybody ben dropped the gem just in case you didn’t catch it, and it’s on the floor, I need you to pick it up the implications. And we’ll revisit it right after we get into behavior, behavior, intelligence and everything. But the idea that you can follow up with a lead in your CRM, based on their personality type, which changes language, which changes how you position it, the the call to action changes the angle that you take. And I’ll say, Ben, when we first met, what really intrigued me was, you know, I’m a personal development junkie, leadership junkie. So you can’t be addicted to those two things without taking just a bunch of these assessments, right. So I’ve got a disc, I’ve got a Colby score, I’m in a just finished a program in transactional leadership. And I have a profile in there. So I know my profiles. But to your point earlier, I’ve also trained myself to identify the profiles in others, starting with my wife and kids, because that it allowed me to communicate and transact with them more effectively. When I know exactly Okay, your big picture, I’m not about to sit up here and give you all the details. Here’s what’s happening. Or when I need details from somebody who’s big picture, it’s like, okay, I get the big picture, answer these questions for me, because you can’t give me the information that I need just based on your personality, if I don’t guide you there. So I’m familiar with this in my life, I understand that I’m of the unique, unique company, most people may be have taken one assessment and haven’t learned how to apply it. So tell us a bit about behavior intelligence, is it based on the four personalities that you’re talking about in identifying those to better communicate?

Ben Bressington 14:21
I wish it was only based on four where we actually use the DISC profile, and the ocean or big five. But I found that that was too much information for a lot of people. So I had to simplify it. And I remembered back in the day that an Australian guy Dez hunt created that what they called the bird models, and he like simplified everything to four birds. And the thing was, it creates a visual in which you can memorize and implement because most people forget what the acronyms of the letters and all that type of stuff stand for. And that’s the problem, right? Because if I can’t recall it and apply it, then why did you do it in the first place? Right. So the thing is, is we’ve we’ve got all the models The thing is, is we can give you whatever model you want. But the thing is, is for most people, we simplify it. So it’s common denominator so you can do something with it. And that’s the big difference between what we call analytics and insights. Okay, insights or actionable intelligence. Analytics is stuff you’ve still got to interpret and do stuff with. Right? And that’s a problem with a lot of these assessments is they they produce analytics. And then it’s like, well, how do you implement this? Oh, you need another month long bootcamp to learn how to do that and become certified in the process. Yeah, but how do I have the conversation? What’s the script? What’s the words? And one of the big things we noticed, and now we analyze for sales conversations is 50 to 80% of your sales pitch is determined by how you say things. And literally the questions you ask. And we’re seeing that in a lot of the data from conversations is your linguistically so that the words you use are creating resistance in the person you’re speaking to? Yes, and you don’t even realize that you’re following the million dollar script. Just because I gave you the script doesn’t mean you understand the fundamentals of the example is like, I didn’t say I hit my wife. I didn’t say I didn’t hit my wife. Like you can go all the way through right you move the tonality of the line. To the whole point of I didn’t say I hit my wife like that every time you change the tone placement, on that you change the interpretation. And I know when we first met, we showed you hey, we can analyze somebodies webpage, show them the personality type for the content on the webpage, and actually then show them the personality of the person doing the sale. And is there a mismatch? Because you know what you hired, a copywriter used a template, you filled in some blanks? Yeah. And you don’t realize that you’re like, why am I attracting these knuckleheads?

Chris Davis 17:00
Yes, I have to throw myself in this bucket. Because I started selling programs and courses online, like anybody else, hey, it’s technology that can do it, put it in record videos, sell it for 100,000, whatever the case may be, right. And it got to the point where, as I’m growing in my personal development, and just understanding more about myself and other personalities, and I had to take a step back, Ben, and I say, wait a minute, which personalities is my program best for? I had never asked a question, never asked a question. So I go through an assessment of the people who have high retention with me, and the people who had a willingness to pay, but I couldn’t retain them. And it clear as day, all of them that I could not retain fell in one bucket. And they were the type of thinker that wants to do implementation to impress themselves. But they don’t beyond that initial impression. And that initial high, they’re on to the next project, when I’m looking for people who want to do the implementation now. And tomorrow, and the next year, and so forth.

Ben Bressington 18:15
You know, what, you know, what’s interesting about that, though, is that you can actually identify the opportunity with that. So we would call that person, the peacock, right? We call it Vegas, the peacock because it’s just like Vegas, it’s all glitz and glamour status, they want to be famous, right? So you know what, I would go you know what, there’s a massive opportunity, because you can have the peacock version of our system, which actually teaches you the theory. So you understand it and you’ll be famous because you now know something. But then we give you the assistant team to implement it because we know you hate implementation. So then like he, you can actually start to segment your business model. Your persona types and and one of the biggest problems people make with personas, they go Oh, yeah, it’s a mother of three kids in there who’s got a dog who drives has a Subaru and a minivan and like good lifestyle goals at this. She’s wearing Lululemon and blah, blah, blah, right? And I’m like, Yeah, but that’s great. No, but if I know that personality type, I can literally change my words. So I resonate with them. And it brings in the demographics data, which you can actually bring in smarter demographics, rather than because you’re talking to somebody core motivations. And so if people didn’t capture it, we can literally take an email address or a LinkedIn profile, and convert that into a full personality assessment without you doing any assessments. Yeah, yeah. And, and then we take it one step further, which we can actually analyze your emails, your call recordings, your voicemails, your text messages. And literally, you provide you with over 100 different insights by they do have influence over the person you’re talking to, if you’re on a call with somebody is like, do you have authority? And if you don’t have authority and influence Well, when you get to close a deal I can promise you, you’re gonna go, you know, what, can you just email me that over, or I’ll get a look at it next week, and you know what they’re gonna do, they’re gonna ghost you, right? So the thing is, is we can actually see if there’s miscommunication, subtleties that you missed. And like simplest things, the simplest things is what we call the happiness sandwich. And the happiness and we’re just simple. From a data science perspective, and human behavioral perspective, you only remember how something starts and how something ends. So this is the biggest writer down you’re going to hear today. Whenever you do something with your automating something, make sure people have fun at the end of it, or it’s enjoyable, or it’s memorable, like, make someone smile, right. So you got to make them smile, start gonna make them start smile at the end. And most people don’t realize is when they do something, you may create a negative emotion, or you may dive into some pain. And you leave them sitting in that resentment and pain, with no hope of the future, so you go, okay, the call was great, I really built pain I got on, they’re gonna move forward. And they’re stuck in that negative emotion, which causes them to start to look for other options or get stuck or just not want to communicate with you because you’ve created this negative memory. So we can actually tell you in 15 seconds, literally, if the emails you’re sending a causing people to lose interest. Like, that’s the type of power of what’s going on. So now you can use metrics to improve yourself, like never before. Yeah,

Chris Davis 21:31
and it’s, it’s, I hope, it’s all coming together for for our listeners, because this is how you close sales, there is no magic script, there is no say this say that it is understanding who’s in front of you, and learning how to say the words in a way that resonates your solution to the pain. Now, you talked about attributes and characteristics of people are usually how we build up our avatars, right? You know, what they wear kids, and you know, their income and all of these things. But missing is their behavior. So you can use the attributes and characteristics to find a like, avatar or image. But when they’re in front of you guess what you’ve got to, you’ve got to be able to talk to them in a way that’s going to move the transaction forward. And I believe that’s the biggest piece that’s missing, not just from sales strategies, just in communication, just in communication, when I know I prepare for meetings different, I have a different energy, a reservation or dissipation, depending on the person who’s in front of me. And I can do this maybe in a week’s notice, okay, next week, I know I’m meeting with someone, so they’re going to have a million ideas, they’re going to talk a million miles per hour, they’re going to ask me all of these questions that they have no idea what to do with the answers, and they’re gonna walk away in power, I’m gonna walk away drained, I get it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t show up. I just show up prepared. Right.

Ben Bressington 23:12
And sometimes you’ve got to get frank with yourself and get comfortable with the uncomfortable conversations, because there’s all times when we mess up, right? And like, things don’t work out. So the thing is, is okay, how do I best communicate this, but how do I best communicate it in the full personality style. So I give that person the information they need. And you don’t linger. Like the the eagle we call it was that direct person, they task focused, right? They want to be the boss, they want to be in charge, all they care about is ROI. Right? So with that person, you go, Okay, how do I just present the facts and go, here’s the plan moving forward, and like, great boom, because they want to, they want that. The one who wants to be your friend wants to socialize, they want the therapy session a little bit more, and you need to be aware of that. You know, one of the biggest things we help people with literally right now is the sales conversations, what to say how to say it and how to evolve that and give you this feedback loop constantly. So you are improving. Otherwise, you don’t realize you’re doing the wrong thing for six months. And you’re like, why what you start changing other things that aren’t the cause of the problem. Like, one of the biggest problems we have right now and why I created the book people ignorant was that we’ve become ignorant to how to communicate with each other. Yeah, like we use. We used to use words, we now use emojis. So the thing is, is there’s these there’s generational gaps for people who are communicating, you know, or working with it. It’s problematic.

Chris Davis 24:35
Yep, I agree. I agree. And I’ll say this. Listeners, I did this. I well, I shouldn’t say I did this. Ben did this to me mean you did. Ben did this to be because the first time we met he went to my LinkedIn and put my the URL of my LinkedIn profile in his platform. Now. I don’t have I wouldn’t say I have the model LinkedIn profile. I don’t I don’t have a whole lot of text. I’ve got my work history, I’ve got some description. It’s enough, you know, my LinkedIn profile works really well. For me. However, it’s I’ve seen people with much more, much more information on their profile. And when you showed me how it assessed me, just based on my profile, no emails, no website, no anything else, just off the LinkedIn profile. Now, granted, this was a quick conversation, but I was reading on the screen. And I know my scores, I know my profiles, it was at a minimum 85% accurate, just like that. And to me, the opportunity at hand was was clear. It was like, wait a minute, if, if you’re closing leads in any capacity, you need to know as much as possible. And most of the time people are limited to asking those questions to the person. Well, what if you had a platform that could really help you understand this person? When you go into the meeting? Here are their motivations here, their drivers, here are the words not to use, if you if you want to get this deal done, don’t use these words, if you want them to run, use these words, what if you had that type of insight and intelligence going into these conversations? And that’s where I just really saw a unique offering in your platform that I just haven’t seen in the marketplace. So So to that point, what gave you the courage, the arrogance, the the willingness to say, You know what, these profiles have been around for ages. But nobody is doing it this way. Because they’re missing something not I think I’m crazy, I’m going to actually build out a product that takes this intelligence and provides it to somebody to help them communicate and close better.

Ben Bressington 26:53
Well, it was, it was built for a selfish reason. Because like, I use it internally with my team, my people, me, I’m like, how, how do I take that next step? Right? I can’t rely on other people to build it or create, am I right? Right? The P, I could see the pieces. The problem is, is I could see the pieces, like and I System Architect at heart, right? So I’m like, hey, if I get this data from over here, and if I get this data from over here, I can calculate this variable here. And and then the list goes on, right? So several 1000 variables later, right? I’m like, great, boom, right? And we we had version two, prototype one, we had version two. And every time I show it to people, they’re like, holy crap. I’m like, so you mean, I don’t have to listen to every sales call of my sales team, which I hate doing anyway. You mean, like, I can give my sales? People, which could be one person could be a man and his dog, right? Or a lady in the dog. And the thing is, is like I can get real time feedback and what actually happened, not what I think what happened, you know, here’s a sales, here’s a sales myth, sales fauxpa, I’m going to share with people somewhere, some trainers said, right, get excited. Make yourself super excited, like, and you’ll be how many VSL? Or webinars? Have you seen that? Oh, I’m excited to be here. Super excited to be here. I bought into that crap for the longest period of time, right? Yeah, I’m going to tell you why it’s crap. Because the thing is, as most people don’t realize is, your excitement doesn’t wash off. And sometimes it actually creates more resistance rather than influence. That’s what the data shows. So the thing is, yes, it’s okay to be passionate, but you got to be passionate in a neutral way. And sometimes you actually have to be more skeptical. And have the people justified because you want to know the key to persuasion. Here’s the key to persuasion. You need them to persuade themself. They don’t believe a word you’re saying. Anyway, trust is gone. Trust has been destroyed. We’re all this way. Right? And that’s just because of media and messaging. So the thing is, is the secret is like Chris Voss never split the difference, right? So you don’t do that and settling. So the thing is, is, you have to continue to ask them the questions to get them to say them to admit them to realize that there’s pain that they need to move through. And that’s where a lot of people make mistakes. So if you get on anything, don’t start being super excited, because what you can actually be doing is pushing people back in defensive mode. You know what he’s here to sell me? He’s here to pitch me, and I’m going to shut down.

Chris Davis 29:26
Yep. Yep. I’ll say this. You just mentioned it in and we were talking about it prior. You were talking about the next version, and how it’s going to incorporate all of these questions, right? Like, what to ask at what point who’s asking the most questions, but what I found in life is that people are really poor question askers. Right. Now, this comes from an analytical person, highly efficient, so I don’t like to waste of words. I don’t like the waste of questions. I like to get the most out of everything right? It drives me crazy. It’s one of my pet peeves. When someone just goes down the line of questions. They’re like, Hey, how are you doing? Okay, what about? How are you doing yesterday? Okay, how are you? This is like, you know what you could ask one question. And you would have got one answer that summarized all of that. And I see it even worse on in, in transactional communication, because the person doesn’t even often know how to ask the question to get the true information that they need. So you’ve got this repository of questions. Where did they come from? What is this just a few years of experience in in talk to us about the importance of asking the right questions?

Ben Bressington 30:44
Yeah, so it actually comes down to frameworks that are adaptable. And it’s testing and working in complete evolution and working with different partners and sales trainers who follow these models as well. Right? So there’s a complete evolution. And there’s a many people like, you can we can exit, what’s interesting is we can actually tell when you’re on script, vs off script and how you gain or lose authenticity, and how that then impacts trust, right? So the thing is, is like when you get started, one of the best things you can actually say so here’s I’m going to, is it okay, if I give people a practical example? Because I’d like to do comments. Rather than sit here and just like, have another drink of whatever the drink? Yeah, yeah. So the the thing is, is, you get a lead online, right? We’ve all had this thing, we get the name, email, phone number, and you’re gonna you’re gonna call, right? You’re following up with them? Right? What’s the first thing you say to people, Chris? That coldly

Chris Davis 31:47
cold lead. I want to greet them, but also acknowledge whatever previous step that they just took right I want to pick up right where we left off.

Ben Bressington 31:59
Which is correct. Right. So but what’s the, what would be one of the what would be the first main question you asked them?

Chris Davis 32:06
What brings you here? Right? That’s probably the most common Hey, what brings you here? I usually like to lead with information, though. I’ll say, Hey, I see that you. You said XYZ. This call is usually for XYZ, you know, ABC. So tell me a little bit about what your intentions were, you know, something like that? Yeah.

Ben Bressington 32:28
100%, right. So you’re actually on the right track. So the thing is, is saying who you are, where you’re from, and what action and why you’re calling is great. One of the best things you can actually say to people is something along the lines of Have you found what you’re wanting? Or are you still looking in? I said it in a way that’s actually I’m skeptical and doubting, like, you know what I’m calling you. But you know, what you may have actually found because the assumptive close, is actually one of the worst things you can do in sales. And how many people? Are you going to assume the sale? Chris? Why success is the opposite. Remember, you don’t want to be assuming the sale because you know what? I want you to sell me while I should work on you. Because it’s my job to be qualifying. And that’s why it’s a conversation. And most people have got no clue on the framework for the conversation, pitch, offer close? No, not at all. Because we can actually show the data that it doesn’t map so. And you might you can say something along the lines of what your statement was great. And you can adjust it if you want. You can say something along with like, I was just curious, like, what was it about the PDF or the ad that attracted your attention? Yeah, and you shut up for seconds? Can’t you had One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi before be silent? You know what? That’s going to have them open up. And they’re going to start to explain the reasons. And one of the other questions you can say to that is, simply tell me more about that.

Chris Davis 34:01
Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more. I you know what, now that we’re talking about this, and you’re bringing back my boss training, and just overall communication with people? I can’t, I cannot count how many times somebody wasn’t patient enough for the person that they’re talking to, to answer and literally give them the keys that they’re looking for. I have to catch myself doing it all the time. Because I you, you can be on both sides. It’s not like you’re just on one side for life. But in times more so when I’m engaging with my wife, I can ask a question. And maybe she’s not answering it the way that I think the answer to my question should go. And I’ll jump

Ben Bressington 34:46
on a straight line. She didn’t go from A to B, C went from a to z through D back to F and then you know what, there’s, we’ve kind of gone through B and we’ve just touched on a and you’ll often get to the point woman like I just I just asked you, What are we having for dinner like,

Chris Davis 35:02
yeah, and I want you to tell me what I want to know how I want to hear it. And you lose out on so much. So I’ve learned, just be patient, let her talk around and through things and get off on a tangent, get distracted and come back. And though it may bother me, or you know, may irritate me at times that active listening, you’ll find that you actually extract more from people than you could ever need. It’s just people don’t stay silent long enough. And they don’t give people the floor, an unadulterated without interruption or without leaving the conversation mentally, and then coming back when they’re done talking.

Ben Bressington 35:47
You’re 100%, right, because most people have been told you got to get into the pitch, build rapport, ask these four questions. That’s that consultative sale, which once again, late 90s, early 2000s, which things aren’t the same. And people are aware of it, they’re resistant to it now. So the thing is, is you actually like, and they actually say like rapport building, first three to five minutes of any call for 10%, whatever it is, right? Then you want to be pitching for 40%, what we’re seeing is that you should be pitching for less than 10% or even 5%. Because your pitch isn’t complicated. And if I’ve, if you’ve got me to the point where I’m like emotionally engaged and ready to act, I’m going to now take action and therefore you shorten the deal cycle. Because this is what’s happening is a lot of the questions people ask a logical, right up here, logic, very high level, no emotion. So therefore longer sales cycle, harder sales cycle, the pressure at the end, the pressure close, you don’t need any of it. If you do the emotional pain, and you scoop that out like that, they’re coming to you. They’re going, Chris, take my money, take my money, you’re like, hold on, we’ve got a framework and a model, like I just need to know, like, why you want to move forward with that? Yeah. And they’re selling you on why they want you to help them.

Chris Davis 37:03
Yeah, I’m gonna put myself on the operating table here, Ben, I think it’ll help people. Because life is a journey. Even when you arrived, you’re still arriving. Right? So there’s never a point where you are at your best. And there’s, there’s no more improvement, right? I think it’s called the Kaizen effect always improving. So just a few undisclosed days ago, I was in a email conversation with a potential client, and my personality is meeting averse. I don’t like meetings and some meetings, I will kick in and you have to pull me into. And then once I’m in and I’m like, Man, I was a great meeting. I’m so glad we did it. Right. That’s just me, I get it. Even meetings I schedule I have it was just like, Oh, I gotta meet, right? It’s just something about it. Right? So, uh, I and I’m saying this to say, I’m aware of some of the stuff we’re talking about not all of it, you’re you’re very much more mature in this area than me. But what I didn’t do what I didn’t do, Ben is assess who I was talking to. So the deal is on the table, and I didn’t realize I’m talking to another meeting averse individual. So what happens there? Like, we’re trying to communicate terms through email, and we’ve got a call schedule. And he’s like, Hey, look, um, maybe we’ll postpone our call. And we could just continue to work through email. Translation. If I don’t have to meet I don’t want to meet because in the meeting, I may end up committing or maybe I don’t, you know, I’m just not comfortable with going to the meeting yet. on his side, I don’t

Ben Bressington 38:36
like so I don’t want to be sold, right? Yes. I don’t want I don’t want to be sold. I don’t want pressure to be sold. Like, like, let me let me research this and like, Google 50 reviews, right? Don’t overwhelm me now.

Chris Davis 38:49
Right. And here I am. On the ooh Another meeting I don’t have. So both personalities literally repelled one another. And I was thinking about it the other day, as I’m just walking, I’m just like, Chris, you are the leader, you are the one that was more aware, it was my job to create the environment and slowly walk them comfortably communicate and walk them to the end point here. And I just I let my personality get in didn’t assess their personality. So I say that to say you’re, even when you learn this stuff. And even when you’ve been practicing it for years, there’s still these moments where you have these brain farts or you just get caught up in don’t always apply nobody’s 100% But you’ll get caught, you know, but at least you’ll be aware of what happened aware why they ghosted to you.

Ben Bressington 39:37
And that’s the well but how you becoming aware and this is what happens is most people don’t put themselves to become aware to have the intelligence. That’s why like, that’s why we analyze your emails that are going in and out so you can see what’s happening. Like, oh, that person just got frustrated. Do I want to deal with it? Am I okay, losing them? Yeah, like and there’s there’s actually a stage of our framework we actually call consequence kinds of consequence questions and a lot of people that you could have said to the person you’re talking with gone back and forth, for example, you could say have you thought about what would happen if you don’t do anything about this?

Chris Davis 40:18
Hmm. Yes. Great question. Great question. So as you’re not running yet, you know, seconds. Right? Go ahead.

Ben Bressington 40:30
And what if I know it, it’s irrelevant, until you say it until you admit it. And the thing is, is a lot of people are selling features and benefits, which is Hocus Pocus, right? It’s irrelevant. Like whoever walks up to you go, yeah, we’re the fifth best product on the marketplace. And yeah, we’ve got sucky customer support. Right? That’s what Google reviews are for. The thing is, is everyone’s promising the best stuff. So the thing is, is you want to ask them the consequence of taking inaction and they need to trust their words. That’s persuasion, then acknowledging them is a question again, this is having them come towards you.

Chris Davis 41:07
Yeah, say that.

Ben Bressington 41:12
What if you don’t do anything about this problem? Would and your situation gets worse? Have you thought about that? Or I might have said the one that have you thought about? What would happen if you don’t do anything? Yeah. And the thing is, is you need to learn how to say them in a way that it’s natural for you. So it’s all about repeating them repeat. Understanding them the tonality, because I can say this. I’m like, Chris, have you thought about what would happen if you don’t scale your business and solve the challenges you got with your sales team right now?

Ben Bressington 41:51
Mm hmm. And then silence. Silence. Mm hmm.

Ben Bressington 42:03
Have you thought about that? What’s he doing? He’s thinking about it. He’s doing the podcast man. Like, yeah, so but we all go through this and this is the thing is is like, now he’s emotionally coming towards and he doesn’t even realize it. I’m not pressure selling anything. There’s nothing to pressure sell. I don’t even have an expectation of a sale because if you remove that I can actually, they can actually feel you not being salesy, and if you’re not being salesy, you being a trusted authority.

Chris Davis 42:30
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can go on for days with this, it feels like, I’m not, I’m not saying you shouldn’t, not saying that you haven’t, but it feels like there’s a list of questions, that somebody could go to your website and get to get them started in and start to practice, you know, maybe 10 or so questions that they can start to ask, and there’s sales, their communication journey of shortening their sales cycle, to wet their whistle, because I found that those are, whether they’re cards or, you know, whatever the case is, I find that when people are nervous, and this is a lot, but I want to do it right. Sometimes that visual cue, you know, does help. So whether you have that or not, what’s the best place for people to go to connect with you and find out more about behavioral intelligence and applying it to sales as we’ve been talking about?

Ben Bressington 43:24
Yeah, behavior sales.com, you can spell it the English way or the American way. So convict English or TV English either way it works. But behaviorsales.com. And if you actually email [email protected] And mention this podcast, I’ll make sure that the team will provide you with some video training on the cyber questionings and even understanding the personality basics. So that’s a huge thing. I can promise you that resource alone, if you just take one thing and implement it. It can transform any call you’re having, and even your understanding of who you are and what personalities are. So that’s a great resource to help you take the next step.

Chris Davis 44:04
Great, outstanding, we’ll have that email posted as well as the link to behavior sales .com in the show notes. If you haven’t decided at the at the time of recording this, we’re at the top of the year. If you haven’t decided that every year as an entrepreneur business owner that I you need to invest in professional growth and development. I think now is the perfect time to start to say, what this year am I going to do to grow professionally? Starting with communication and sales. I just don’t feel like anybody could ever go wrong. We’re always selling ben it may not be a product we may be selling ourselves. We may be selling our desire we may be selling what our future to someone that we want to be involved with it. We’re always doing it.

Ben Bressington 44:56
You could be you could be communicating where you want to go for dinner. It’s this, you’ll be amazed, like struggling with that understanding that like, it’s not like, hey, it’s not always sales. It’s like, how do I have a conversation with loved ones? How do I tell someone? I don’t want tacos tonight? I want lasagna. Like, it could be that as simple as that.

Chris Davis 45:17
Absolutely. And I find most people struggle with those conversations because they’re missing language. So anytime you have a resource like yours, that gives you language, to say what you really want to say what you need to to get what you want out of life, and business. Do so. So I can’t thank you enough, Ben, for jumping on the podcast, man, really appreciate it. I will make sure that, again, all of our show notes and links are accessible to you. Any parting words for for our listeners?

Ben Bressington 45:51
Yeah, we gave you some huge gold nuggets. The thing is, is you may suck when you try this with someone, right? And you may get it wrong. Yeah, we all do. But the thing is, is that shows your commitment to action and mastery. And one of the things I want people to be aware of is that confidence actually comes from the state of action. Whenever you think about that confidence is actually created after you’ve taken some action or done something. So you will get more confident with this. When you’ve said it three times, you’ll get more confidence with this. When you’ve when you felt the impact of it or you know where you fumble that and look, forget tonality in the first few versions. Just do it and start to come natural with it. And I can promise you, you’ll be like whoa, whoa, holy crap. Whoa, like, Yeah, it’s fine.

Chris Davis 46:44
Got it. Man. That was great. Great, great last words I will not add to them. Thank you for coming on to the podcast man. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The all systems go podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure that you’re subscribed at the time of recording the all systems go podcast is free to subscribe to and it can be found in Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts new episodes are released every Thursday. So make sure you’re subscribed so that you don’t miss out and while you’re at it, please leave us a five star rating and review to show some love but also to help future listeners more easily find the podcast so they can experience the value of goodness as well. We’ve compiled all resources mentioned on the podcast, as well as other resources that are extremely valuable and effective at helping you grow your marketing automation skills quickly and you can access them all at all systems go podcast calm. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I see you online. Automate responsibly, my friends

Narrator 0:00
You’re listening to the off systems go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot. Learn how to deploy automated marketing and sell systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of automation bridge, Chris Davis.

Chris Davis 0:33
Welcome everybody to another edition, another episode of The all systems go podcast where we invite startup founders and digital marketers alike to discuss strategies and software used to build automated marketing and sales systems at scale. I’m your host, Chris L. Davis, the founder of automation bridge. And today, our guest is Ben Bressington. And he’s a speaker off an author of multiple books. With the latest book, people ignorant unlocking success, confidence and influence. He Ben has a law and criminal degree from Australia and spent 10 years helping fortune 100 companies apply gamification principles to their sales and communication process. If that didn’t just kind of pique your interest everybody, somebody gamifying

Chris Davis 1:30
with a criminal and law background, just that’s just a precursor of what you have in store today. And now he spends his time helping people improve their sales conversions or conversations, specifically helping people close deals faster and discover hidden opportunities. In our daily communication. We’re going to talk about behavior intelligence and how you can use it to close more deals and close faster. Ben’s here to do it. Ben, welcome to the podcast How you doing?

Ben Bressington 2:03
Man, I am in the presence of a rockstar. Like I feel like nervous like meeting the queen or something like I’m like, oh my god, this is Chris like Damn.

Chris Davis 2:14
I’m a mere mortal man, mere mortal. And I am. So this is the good thing about the podcast is I get to interview people with a respect for me. And then I mutually get to give that respect back. Because the platform that you’ve built and are continuing to expand is is so unique, so unique, like none other and I can’t wait to talk about it. But But first and foremost, we know you’ve got the criminal criminology and law background, we know you’ve been helping sales, I mean, fortune 100 companies with their gamification and making sure that the sales process is shortening. What were your humble beginnings? Like? Were you always into sales? Did you know that this is going to be the end? Or were you did you start off somewhere else and life just instructed you down this path?

Ben Bressington 3:05
Man, I sucked at sales. I sucked at sales and communication in general. Like it’s why I love technology. And like everything I have has a technology bent to it because like I am much happier behind the screen behind building the systems like for many, many years, I was the guy behind the scenes. Building the 30,000 member community launching 300 Plus apps like doing that was great because you know what? And why I got in an internet marketing was because I’m like, I got sold the dream if you don’t got to talk to nobody, I might you know what, I don’t like talking to nobody. So you know what, but what they don’t tell you? Is that like, that’s the dream. The reality is all day long. All you do is talk to people. Yes. Yes. So yeah, there’s been a massive evolution of that roller coaster because I started as literally an introvert who struggled to have a connect a conversation with anybody. And even today, like, I have to catch myself, like I can be the speaker on at the event. I’ll walk into the room. I’m still nervous. I’m still like just watching people like, because I can analyze people and whatever. But I’ve got to like, I’ve got to hype myself up to go introduce myself. If someone introduces me, we’re talking, but I’ve got to introduce myself. I’m like Gameface on let’s go like Let’s rock this and for a lot of people it’s hard. They don’t know those little hacks to even do that type of stuff. But yeah, does that make sense?

Chris Davis 4:32
Yeah, Spoken like a true introvert that needed a framework to be an extrovert

Ben Bressington 4:39
directly out and like I love being around what’s weird is I love being around people and I feed off that but man I hit I hit this point in the evening where I hit my like, I hit my word quota smash your I’m done. And then I’ll just literally like an irish exit as they call it like just out so quit. Bingo. Yeah, yeah, no, that’s

Chris Davis 5:02
good I, I would say I share the same sentiments, I started out, I call myself a ninja a lot of the times because you just don’t see me. It’s like, it’s something’s happening, things are getting done, but you just don’t see the guy that’s doing it. And I took pride in that. And as you mature as a business owner and entrepreneur, you start to realize that if you’re going to be behind the scenes like that, then somebody has to be out front. And a lot of times, that’s not an easy decision. And most of times, if you have the ability to do sales, you should. And I guess that brings us to where we’re at, where what was the point been for you where you started to read the fine? What sales was because initially, you had to have a bad relationship with it, because you wanted to stay away from it. And then something shifted, what was that shift when you start to understand it? Better?

Ben Bressington 6:00
Yeah, so like, when you attempting sales, you don’t close the deal for six months, you kind of realize like, yeah, it’s not working. And most people go, You know what, it’s the lead, it’s a lead, and I did that, like everybody else is the lead suck, man

Ben Bressington 6:16
that leads suck, blame marketing. And then

Ben Bressington 6:19
like off, yeah, after you’ve done like three different completeleads ventures type thing, and you go, you know what, there’s a commonality in all of these businesses, and it ain’t the leads. It’s a tough pill to swallow of, like, maybe I’m doing something wrong. And like, I had the privilege of doing some work with Jordan Belfort and stuff like that, and advising those guys with some of the things they did. So I had access to like, those systems. And when I went through them, to me, they just felt so unnatural. And I always felt like the resistance, or that pressure I was putting on people was uncomfortable, because it’s an uncomfortable conversation. And what I wasn’t aware of is that like, I didn’t know at that point in time, but the data science now shows that the resistance you create linguistically or even through body language is felt through the other person, and that’s why they’ll ghost you. Like, you get off the call gone. That was fantastic. Yeah. And then you get ghosted, you know, but I swear that guy was like, a solid for a deal, right? Like, and so you really have to analyze, like, what am I saying? And how am I saying and when that creates this whole rabbit hole in itself? Right? Because at the time, no one had clear answers. So it’s like, how do I? How do I understand language? How do I understand body language? How do I understand myself? Yeah. And like, that’s the whole personal development rabbit hole. Right?

Chris Davis 7:44
And I would so let me jump on this train here. Do you feel like the more you invested in personal development and began to understand even your own wiring, the easier it was to understand sales in its in its proper context? Or did you have a particular mentor that that made it clear? What What was that for you?

Ben Bressington 8:08
Um, it’s a mix of approach, both. And a lot of the mentors are set in their way or their system, or their framework that they operate under the real world, right? So you have to also be aware of that, like, because I’ve had some amazing mentors, who were great at the content, but they delivered it like they’re educating a lecture hall at a university. And I, the one question I always ask is, like, Great, how do I implement that? Not the theory behind that? How do I apply it to the conversation I’m about to have or the pitch I’m about to make? Or you want me to go master body language, and there’s 110 variables? And that’s going to take me at least 12 months to do? And like, what are the three I need to pay attention to on this call? Yeah, because those like, and what I realized is you don’t have to go like PHD deep on a lot of this stuff. You just have to understand how to use it in the dynamics of a conversation. And when you can do that life changes for a lot of people. And this is where a lot of people get lost on like, they’ll go into NLP. So then they do all the NLP certifications. And they’ll do all these all these personality type assessments stuff. And I’m like, great. So can you identify a personality? Oh, yeah, I just I, you have to give me a whole lot of variables. Or I could ask them 20 questions, I might know you should be able to deal with two questions, or you should be able to do just based on an assumption. What do you mean? Like you’re the Certified Trainer? Like? What do you mean? What do you mean?

Chris Davis 9:40
That’s what I mean. Does that make sense? Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So go ahead, keep going. Keep going.

Ben Bressington 9:48
Yeah, so I know before we got on the call, we’re talking about the sales process and like, there’s a whole lot of that people don’t understand, I understand that history continues to repeat itself, even if you’re not aware of your own history. If you don’t learn from the mistakes and learn the real lessons, you’ll continue to make the mistakes. I made the mistakes when I was looking for business partners and all that type of stuff, right? And when you look back, like the AIDA method, like AIDA a lot of how a lot of sales trainers or people write their sales copy and things like that. But when you ask the question of when was this created? Who was this created for? Most people never asked those type of questions. Right. And when I looked it up, it was like 1846 that was created for for the consumers back in 1846. Right? Do you think consumer attention and interest has changed since 1846? changed in the last 10 years? Right? And I’m sure you know, with your system automation stuff you have to do, how you automate the system is I know, it’s similar, but it’s not exactly the same as 10 years ago, is it?

Chris Davis 10:52
Correct? Oh, man, it is 10 years ago was practically non existent. You know, technology has just moved so fast, the processes have always been there. But watch this been, let’s have the same conversation 10 months from now, and it will even be different. You know,

Ben Bressington 11:11
yeah, it’d be how you consume, like, even now we’re looking at how we’re consuming the content you’re creating. I know that the research shows that most buyers want somewhere upwards of 18 hours of content to be consumed, before a buying decision is made, right? That’s what the data now shows, right? Just for consumption. And like, if you’re a business owner, you have to think about, well, look, how am I using that content? And how am I delivering it multi dimensionally. But one of the things that always fascinated me is like, I’m like, well, who’s ever asked the question of how do I need to change the delivery of the content based on the personality type. And when you think of that, you’re like, Holy Jesus, because now in my CRM, I can automate different emails based on the four personality types. And I’m not even talking about 16 personalities you like because like, I’m an Australian guy, like, it’s simple. I like my beer and my shrimp on the barbie, right? Like, we keep these things simple. So the thing is, is four is more than enough for you to be more than dangerous and effective. And if you do that, like you’ll start to transform your life. So automation doesn’t even have to be that complicated. But it can be the results just compound. And that’s what’s important.

Chris Davis 12:23
Yeah, I have to say everybody ben dropped the gem just in case you didn’t catch it, and it’s on the floor, I need you to pick it up the implications. And we’ll revisit it right after we get into behavior, behavior, intelligence and everything. But the idea that you can follow up with a lead in your CRM, based on their personality type, which changes language, which changes how you position it, the the call to action changes the angle that you take. And I’ll say, Ben, when we first met, what really intrigued me was, you know, I’m a personal development junkie, leadership junkie. So you can’t be addicted to those two things without taking just a bunch of these assessments, right. So I’ve got a disc, I’ve got a Colby score, I’m in a just finished a program in transactional leadership. And I have a profile in there. So I know my profiles. But to your point earlier, I’ve also trained myself to identify the profiles in others, starting with my wife and kids, because that it allowed me to communicate and transact with them more effectively. When I know exactly Okay, your big picture, I’m not about to sit up here and give you all the details. Here’s what’s happening. Or when I need details from somebody who’s big picture, it’s like, okay, I get the big picture, answer these questions for me, because you can’t give me the information that I need just based on your personality, if I don’t guide you there. So I’m familiar with this in my life, I understand that I’m of the unique, unique company, most people may be have taken one assessment and haven’t learned how to apply it. So tell us a bit about behavior intelligence, is it based on the four personalities that you’re talking about in identifying those to better communicate?

Ben Bressington 14:21
I wish it was only based on four where we actually use the DISC profile, and the ocean or big five. But I found that that was too much information for a lot of people. So I had to simplify it. And I remembered back in the day that an Australian guy Dez hunt created that what they called the bird models, and he like simplified everything to four birds. And the thing was, it creates a visual in which you can memorize and implement because most people forget what the acronyms of the letters and all that type of stuff stand for. And that’s the problem, right? Because if I can’t recall it and apply it, then why did you do it in the first place? Right. So the thing is, is we’ve we’ve got all the models The thing is, is we can give you whatever model you want. But the thing is, is for most people, we simplify it. So it’s common denominator so you can do something with it. And that’s the big difference between what we call analytics and insights. Okay, insights or actionable intelligence. Analytics is stuff you’ve still got to interpret and do stuff with. Right? And that’s a problem with a lot of these assessments is they they produce analytics. And then it’s like, well, how do you implement this? Oh, you need another month long bootcamp to learn how to do that and become certified in the process. Yeah, but how do I have the conversation? What’s the script? What’s the words? And one of the big things we noticed, and now we analyze for sales conversations is 50 to 80% of your sales pitch is determined by how you say things. And literally the questions you ask. And we’re seeing that in a lot of the data from conversations is your linguistically so that the words you use are creating resistance in the person you’re speaking to? Yes, and you don’t even realize that you’re following the million dollar script. Just because I gave you the script doesn’t mean you understand the fundamentals of the example is like, I didn’t say I hit my wife. I didn’t say I didn’t hit my wife. Like you can go all the way through right you move the tonality of the line. To the whole point of I didn’t say I hit my wife like that every time you change the tone placement, on that you change the interpretation. And I know when we first met, we showed you hey, we can analyze somebodies webpage, show them the personality type for the content on the webpage, and actually then show them the personality of the person doing the sale. And is there a mismatch? Because you know what you hired, a copywriter used a template, you filled in some blanks? Yeah. And you don’t realize that you’re like, why am I attracting these knuckleheads?

Chris Davis 17:00
Yes, I have to throw myself in this bucket. Because I started selling programs and courses online, like anybody else, hey, it’s technology that can do it, put it in record videos, sell it for 100,000, whatever the case may be, right. And it got to the point where, as I’m growing in my personal development, and just understanding more about myself and other personalities, and I had to take a step back, Ben, and I say, wait a minute, which personalities is my program best for? I had never asked a question, never asked a question. So I go through an assessment of the people who have high retention with me, and the people who had a willingness to pay, but I couldn’t retain them. And it clear as day, all of them that I could not retain fell in one bucket. And they were the type of thinker that wants to do implementation to impress themselves. But they don’t beyond that initial impression. And that initial high, they’re on to the next project, when I’m looking for people who want to do the implementation now. And tomorrow, and the next year, and so forth.

Ben Bressington 18:15
You know, what, you know, what’s interesting about that, though, is that you can actually identify the opportunity with that. So we would call that person, the peacock, right? We call it Vegas, the peacock because it’s just like Vegas, it’s all glitz and glamour status, they want to be famous, right? So you know what, I would go you know what, there’s a massive opportunity, because you can have the peacock version of our system, which actually teaches you the theory. So you understand it and you’ll be famous because you now know something. But then we give you the assistant team to implement it because we know you hate implementation. So then like he, you can actually start to segment your business model. Your persona types and and one of the biggest problems people make with personas, they go Oh, yeah, it’s a mother of three kids in there who’s got a dog who drives has a Subaru and a minivan and like good lifestyle goals at this. She’s wearing Lululemon and blah, blah, blah, right? And I’m like, Yeah, but that’s great. No, but if I know that personality type, I can literally change my words. So I resonate with them. And it brings in the demographics data, which you can actually bring in smarter demographics, rather than because you’re talking to somebody core motivations. And so if people didn’t capture it, we can literally take an email address or a LinkedIn profile, and convert that into a full personality assessment without you doing any assessments. Yeah, yeah. And, and then we take it one step further, which we can actually analyze your emails, your call recordings, your voicemails, your text messages. And literally, you provide you with over 100 different insights by they do have influence over the person you’re talking to, if you’re on a call with somebody is like, do you have authority? And if you don’t have authority and influence Well, when you get to close a deal I can promise you, you’re gonna go, you know, what, can you just email me that over, or I’ll get a look at it next week, and you know what they’re gonna do, they’re gonna ghost you, right? So the thing is, is we can actually see if there’s miscommunication, subtleties that you missed. And like simplest things, the simplest things is what we call the happiness sandwich. And the happiness and we’re just simple. From a data science perspective, and human behavioral perspective, you only remember how something starts and how something ends. So this is the biggest writer down you’re going to hear today. Whenever you do something with your automating something, make sure people have fun at the end of it, or it’s enjoyable, or it’s memorable, like, make someone smile, right. So you got to make them smile, start gonna make them start smile at the end. And most people don’t realize is when they do something, you may create a negative emotion, or you may dive into some pain. And you leave them sitting in that resentment and pain, with no hope of the future, so you go, okay, the call was great, I really built pain I got on, they’re gonna move forward. And they’re stuck in that negative emotion, which causes them to start to look for other options or get stuck or just not want to communicate with you because you’ve created this negative memory. So we can actually tell you in 15 seconds, literally, if the emails you’re sending a causing people to lose interest. Like, that’s the type of power of what’s going on. So now you can use metrics to improve yourself, like never before. Yeah,

Chris Davis 21:31
and it’s, it’s, I hope, it’s all coming together for for our listeners, because this is how you close sales, there is no magic script, there is no say this say that it is understanding who’s in front of you, and learning how to say the words in a way that resonates your solution to the pain. Now, you talked about attributes and characteristics of people are usually how we build up our avatars, right? You know, what they wear kids, and you know, their income and all of these things. But missing is their behavior. So you can use the attributes and characteristics to find a like, avatar or image. But when they’re in front of you guess what you’ve got to, you’ve got to be able to talk to them in a way that’s going to move the transaction forward. And I believe that’s the biggest piece that’s missing, not just from sales strategies, just in communication, just in communication, when I know I prepare for meetings different, I have a different energy, a reservation or dissipation, depending on the person who’s in front of me. And I can do this maybe in a week’s notice, okay, next week, I know I’m meeting with someone, so they’re going to have a million ideas, they’re going to talk a million miles per hour, they’re going to ask me all of these questions that they have no idea what to do with the answers, and they’re gonna walk away in power, I’m gonna walk away drained, I get it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t show up. I just show up prepared. Right.

Ben Bressington 23:12
And sometimes you’ve got to get frank with yourself and get comfortable with the uncomfortable conversations, because there’s all times when we mess up, right? And like, things don’t work out. So the thing is, is okay, how do I best communicate this, but how do I best communicate it in the full personality style. So I give that person the information they need. And you don’t linger. Like the the eagle we call it was that direct person, they task focused, right? They want to be the boss, they want to be in charge, all they care about is ROI. Right? So with that person, you go, Okay, how do I just present the facts and go, here’s the plan moving forward, and like, great boom, because they want to, they want that. The one who wants to be your friend wants to socialize, they want the therapy session a little bit more, and you need to be aware of that. You know, one of the biggest things we help people with literally right now is the sales conversations, what to say how to say it and how to evolve that and give you this feedback loop constantly. So you are improving. Otherwise, you don’t realize you’re doing the wrong thing for six months. And you’re like, why what you start changing other things that aren’t the cause of the problem. Like, one of the biggest problems we have right now and why I created the book people ignorant was that we’ve become ignorant to how to communicate with each other. Yeah, like we use. We used to use words, we now use emojis. So the thing is, is there’s these there’s generational gaps for people who are communicating, you know, or working with it. It’s problematic.

Chris Davis 24:35
Yep, I agree. I agree. And I’ll say this. Listeners, I did this. I well, I shouldn’t say I did this. Ben did this to me mean you did. Ben did this to be because the first time we met he went to my LinkedIn and put my the URL of my LinkedIn profile in his platform. Now. I don’t have I wouldn’t say I have the model LinkedIn profile. I don’t I don’t have a whole lot of text. I’ve got my work history, I’ve got some description. It’s enough, you know, my LinkedIn profile works really well. For me. However, it’s I’ve seen people with much more, much more information on their profile. And when you showed me how it assessed me, just based on my profile, no emails, no website, no anything else, just off the LinkedIn profile. Now, granted, this was a quick conversation, but I was reading on the screen. And I know my scores, I know my profiles, it was at a minimum 85% accurate, just like that. And to me, the opportunity at hand was was clear. It was like, wait a minute, if, if you’re closing leads in any capacity, you need to know as much as possible. And most of the time people are limited to asking those questions to the person. Well, what if you had a platform that could really help you understand this person? When you go into the meeting? Here are their motivations here, their drivers, here are the words not to use, if you if you want to get this deal done, don’t use these words, if you want them to run, use these words, what if you had that type of insight and intelligence going into these conversations? And that’s where I just really saw a unique offering in your platform that I just haven’t seen in the marketplace. So So to that point, what gave you the courage, the arrogance, the the willingness to say, You know what, these profiles have been around for ages. But nobody is doing it this way. Because they’re missing something not I think I’m crazy, I’m going to actually build out a product that takes this intelligence and provides it to somebody to help them communicate and close better.

Ben Bressington 26:53
Well, it was, it was built for a selfish reason. Because like, I use it internally with my team, my people, me, I’m like, how, how do I take that next step? Right? I can’t rely on other people to build it or create, am I right? Right? The P, I could see the pieces. The problem is, is I could see the pieces, like and I System Architect at heart, right? So I’m like, hey, if I get this data from over here, and if I get this data from over here, I can calculate this variable here. And and then the list goes on, right? So several 1000 variables later, right? I’m like, great, boom, right? And we we had version two, prototype one, we had version two. And every time I show it to people, they’re like, holy crap. I’m like, so you mean, I don’t have to listen to every sales call of my sales team, which I hate doing anyway. You mean, like, I can give my sales? People, which could be one person could be a man and his dog, right? Or a lady in the dog. And the thing is, is like I can get real time feedback and what actually happened, not what I think what happened, you know, here’s a sales, here’s a sales myth, sales fauxpa, I’m going to share with people somewhere, some trainers said, right, get excited. Make yourself super excited, like, and you’ll be how many VSL? Or webinars? Have you seen that? Oh, I’m excited to be here. Super excited to be here. I bought into that crap for the longest period of time, right? Yeah, I’m going to tell you why it’s crap. Because the thing is, as most people don’t realize is, your excitement doesn’t wash off. And sometimes it actually creates more resistance rather than influence. That’s what the data shows. So the thing is, yes, it’s okay to be passionate, but you got to be passionate in a neutral way. And sometimes you actually have to be more skeptical. And have the people justified because you want to know the key to persuasion. Here’s the key to persuasion. You need them to persuade themself. They don’t believe a word you’re saying. Anyway, trust is gone. Trust has been destroyed. We’re all this way. Right? And that’s just because of media and messaging. So the thing is, is the secret is like Chris Voss never split the difference, right? So you don’t do that and settling. So the thing is, is, you have to continue to ask them the questions to get them to say them to admit them to realize that there’s pain that they need to move through. And that’s where a lot of people make mistakes. So if you get on anything, don’t start being super excited, because what you can actually be doing is pushing people back in defensive mode. You know what he’s here to sell me? He’s here to pitch me, and I’m going to shut down.

Chris Davis 29:26
Yep. Yep. I’ll say this. You just mentioned it in and we were talking about it prior. You were talking about the next version, and how it’s going to incorporate all of these questions, right? Like, what to ask at what point who’s asking the most questions, but what I found in life is that people are really poor question askers. Right. Now, this comes from an analytical person, highly efficient, so I don’t like to waste of words. I don’t like the waste of questions. I like to get the most out of everything right? It drives me crazy. It’s one of my pet peeves. When someone just goes down the line of questions. They’re like, Hey, how are you doing? Okay, what about? How are you doing yesterday? Okay, how are you? This is like, you know what you could ask one question. And you would have got one answer that summarized all of that. And I see it even worse on in, in transactional communication, because the person doesn’t even often know how to ask the question to get the true information that they need. So you’ve got this repository of questions. Where did they come from? What is this just a few years of experience in in talk to us about the importance of asking the right questions?

Ben Bressington 30:44
Yeah, so it actually comes down to frameworks that are adaptable. And it’s testing and working in complete evolution and working with different partners and sales trainers who follow these models as well. Right? So there’s a complete evolution. And there’s a many people like, you can we can exit, what’s interesting is we can actually tell when you’re on script, vs off script and how you gain or lose authenticity, and how that then impacts trust, right? So the thing is, is like when you get started, one of the best things you can actually say so here’s I’m going to, is it okay, if I give people a practical example? Because I’d like to do comments. Rather than sit here and just like, have another drink of whatever the drink? Yeah, yeah. So the the thing is, is, you get a lead online, right? We’ve all had this thing, we get the name, email, phone number, and you’re gonna you’re gonna call, right? You’re following up with them? Right? What’s the first thing you say to people, Chris? That coldly

Chris Davis 31:47
cold lead. I want to greet them, but also acknowledge whatever previous step that they just took right I want to pick up right where we left off.

Ben Bressington 31:59
Which is correct. Right. So but what’s the, what would be one of the what would be the first main question you asked them?

Chris Davis 32:06
What brings you here? Right? That’s probably the most common Hey, what brings you here? I usually like to lead with information, though. I’ll say, Hey, I see that you. You said XYZ. This call is usually for XYZ, you know, ABC. So tell me a little bit about what your intentions were, you know, something like that? Yeah.

Ben Bressington 32:28
100%, right. So you’re actually on the right track. So the thing is, is saying who you are, where you’re from, and what action and why you’re calling is great. One of the best things you can actually say to people is something along the lines of Have you found what you’re wanting? Or are you still looking in? I said it in a way that’s actually I’m skeptical and doubting, like, you know what I’m calling you. But you know, what you may have actually found because the assumptive close, is actually one of the worst things you can do in sales. And how many people? Are you going to assume the sale? Chris? Why success is the opposite. Remember, you don’t want to be assuming the sale because you know what? I want you to sell me while I should work on you. Because it’s my job to be qualifying. And that’s why it’s a conversation. And most people have got no clue on the framework for the conversation, pitch, offer close? No, not at all. Because we can actually show the data that it doesn’t map so. And you might you can say something along the lines of what your statement was great. And you can adjust it if you want. You can say something along with like, I was just curious, like, what was it about the PDF or the ad that attracted your attention? Yeah, and you shut up for seconds? Can’t you had One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi before be silent? You know what? That’s going to have them open up. And they’re going to start to explain the reasons. And one of the other questions you can say to that is, simply tell me more about that.

Chris Davis 34:01
Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more. I you know what, now that we’re talking about this, and you’re bringing back my boss training, and just overall communication with people? I can’t, I cannot count how many times somebody wasn’t patient enough for the person that they’re talking to, to answer and literally give them the keys that they’re looking for. I have to catch myself doing it all the time. Because I you, you can be on both sides. It’s not like you’re just on one side for life. But in times more so when I’m engaging with my wife, I can ask a question. And maybe she’s not answering it the way that I think the answer to my question should go. And I’ll jump

Ben Bressington 34:46
on a straight line. She didn’t go from A to B, C went from a to z through D back to F and then you know what, there’s, we’ve kind of gone through B and we’ve just touched on a and you’ll often get to the point woman like I just I just asked you, What are we having for dinner like,

Chris Davis 35:02
yeah, and I want you to tell me what I want to know how I want to hear it. And you lose out on so much. So I’ve learned, just be patient, let her talk around and through things and get off on a tangent, get distracted and come back. And though it may bother me, or you know, may irritate me at times that active listening, you’ll find that you actually extract more from people than you could ever need. It’s just people don’t stay silent long enough. And they don’t give people the floor, an unadulterated without interruption or without leaving the conversation mentally, and then coming back when they’re done talking.

Ben Bressington 35:47
You’re 100%, right, because most people have been told you got to get into the pitch, build rapport, ask these four questions. That’s that consultative sale, which once again, late 90s, early 2000s, which things aren’t the same. And people are aware of it, they’re resistant to it now. So the thing is, is you actually like, and they actually say like rapport building, first three to five minutes of any call for 10%, whatever it is, right? Then you want to be pitching for 40%, what we’re seeing is that you should be pitching for less than 10% or even 5%. Because your pitch isn’t complicated. And if I’ve, if you’ve got me to the point where I’m like emotionally engaged and ready to act, I’m going to now take action and therefore you shorten the deal cycle. Because this is what’s happening is a lot of the questions people ask a logical, right up here, logic, very high level, no emotion. So therefore longer sales cycle, harder sales cycle, the pressure at the end, the pressure close, you don’t need any of it. If you do the emotional pain, and you scoop that out like that, they’re coming to you. They’re going, Chris, take my money, take my money, you’re like, hold on, we’ve got a framework and a model, like I just need to know, like, why you want to move forward with that? Yeah. And they’re selling you on why they want you to help them.

Chris Davis 37:03
Yeah, I’m gonna put myself on the operating table here, Ben, I think it’ll help people. Because life is a journey. Even when you arrived, you’re still arriving. Right? So there’s never a point where you are at your best. And there’s, there’s no more improvement, right? I think it’s called the Kaizen effect always improving. So just a few undisclosed days ago, I was in a email conversation with a potential client, and my personality is meeting averse. I don’t like meetings and some meetings, I will kick in and you have to pull me into. And then once I’m in and I’m like, Man, I was a great meeting. I’m so glad we did it. Right. That’s just me, I get it. Even meetings I schedule I have it was just like, Oh, I gotta meet, right? It’s just something about it. Right? So, uh, I and I’m saying this to say, I’m aware of some of the stuff we’re talking about not all of it, you’re you’re very much more mature in this area than me. But what I didn’t do what I didn’t do, Ben is assess who I was talking to. So the deal is on the table, and I didn’t realize I’m talking to another meeting averse individual. So what happens there? Like, we’re trying to communicate terms through email, and we’ve got a call schedule. And he’s like, Hey, look, um, maybe we’ll postpone our call. And we could just continue to work through email. Translation. If I don’t have to meet I don’t want to meet because in the meeting, I may end up committing or maybe I don’t, you know, I’m just not comfortable with going to the meeting yet. on his side, I don’t

Ben Bressington 38:36
like so I don’t want to be sold, right? Yes. I don’t want I don’t want to be sold. I don’t want pressure to be sold. Like, like, let me let me research this and like, Google 50 reviews, right? Don’t overwhelm me now.

Chris Davis 38:49
Right. And here I am. On the ooh Another meeting I don’t have. So both personalities literally repelled one another. And I was thinking about it the other day, as I’m just walking, I’m just like, Chris, you are the leader, you are the one that was more aware, it was my job to create the environment and slowly walk them comfortably communicate and walk them to the end point here. And I just I let my personality get in didn’t assess their personality. So I say that to say you’re, even when you learn this stuff. And even when you’ve been practicing it for years, there’s still these moments where you have these brain farts or you just get caught up in don’t always apply nobody’s 100% But you’ll get caught, you know, but at least you’ll be aware of what happened aware why they ghosted to you.

Ben Bressington 39:37
And that’s the well but how you becoming aware and this is what happens is most people don’t put themselves to become aware to have the intelligence. That’s why like, that’s why we analyze your emails that are going in and out so you can see what’s happening. Like, oh, that person just got frustrated. Do I want to deal with it? Am I okay, losing them? Yeah, like and there’s there’s actually a stage of our framework we actually call consequence kinds of consequence questions and a lot of people that you could have said to the person you’re talking with gone back and forth, for example, you could say have you thought about what would happen if you don’t do anything about this?

Chris Davis 40:18
Hmm. Yes. Great question. Great question. So as you’re not running yet, you know, seconds. Right? Go ahead.

Ben Bressington 40:30
And what if I know it, it’s irrelevant, until you say it until you admit it. And the thing is, is a lot of people are selling features and benefits, which is Hocus Pocus, right? It’s irrelevant. Like whoever walks up to you go, yeah, we’re the fifth best product on the marketplace. And yeah, we’ve got sucky customer support. Right? That’s what Google reviews are for. The thing is, is everyone’s promising the best stuff. So the thing is, is you want to ask them the consequence of taking inaction and they need to trust their words. That’s persuasion, then acknowledging them is a question again, this is having them come towards you.

Chris Davis 41:07
Yeah, say that.

Ben Bressington 41:12
What if you don’t do anything about this problem? Would and your situation gets worse? Have you thought about that? Or I might have said the one that have you thought about? What would happen if you don’t do anything? Yeah. And the thing is, is you need to learn how to say them in a way that it’s natural for you. So it’s all about repeating them repeat. Understanding them the tonality, because I can say this. I’m like, Chris, have you thought about what would happen if you don’t scale your business and solve the challenges you got with your sales team right now?

Ben Bressington 41:51
Mm hmm. And then silence. Silence. Mm hmm.

Ben Bressington 42:03
Have you thought about that? What’s he doing? He’s thinking about it. He’s doing the podcast man. Like, yeah, so but we all go through this and this is the thing is is like, now he’s emotionally coming towards and he doesn’t even realize it. I’m not pressure selling anything. There’s nothing to pressure sell. I don’t even have an expectation of a sale because if you remove that I can actually, they can actually feel you not being salesy, and if you’re not being salesy, you being a trusted authority.

Chris Davis 42:30
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can go on for days with this, it feels like, I’m not, I’m not saying you shouldn’t, not saying that you haven’t, but it feels like there’s a list of questions, that somebody could go to your website and get to get them started in and start to practice, you know, maybe 10 or so questions that they can start to ask, and there’s sales, their communication journey of shortening their sales cycle, to wet their whistle, because I found that those are, whether they’re cards or, you know, whatever the case is, I find that when people are nervous, and this is a lot, but I want to do it right. Sometimes that visual cue, you know, does help. So whether you have that or not, what’s the best place for people to go to connect with you and find out more about behavioral intelligence and applying it to sales as we’ve been talking about?

Ben Bressington 43:24
Yeah, behavior sales.com, you can spell it the English way or the American way. So convict English or TV English either way it works. But behaviorsales.com. And if you actually email [email protected] And mention this podcast, I’ll make sure that the team will provide you with some video training on the cyber questionings and even understanding the personality basics. So that’s a huge thing. I can promise you that resource alone, if you just take one thing and implement it. It can transform any call you’re having, and even your understanding of who you are and what personalities are. So that’s a great resource to help you take the next step.

Chris Davis 44:04
Great, outstanding, we’ll have that email posted as well as the link to behavior sales .com in the show notes. If you haven’t decided at the at the time of recording this, we’re at the top of the year. If you haven’t decided that every year as an entrepreneur business owner that I you need to invest in professional growth and development. I think now is the perfect time to start to say, what this year am I going to do to grow professionally? Starting with communication and sales. I just don’t feel like anybody could ever go wrong. We’re always selling ben it may not be a product we may be selling ourselves. We may be selling our desire we may be selling what our future to someone that we want to be involved with it. We’re always doing it.

Ben Bressington 44:56
You could be you could be communicating where you want to go for dinner. It’s this, you’ll be amazed, like struggling with that understanding that like, it’s not like, hey, it’s not always sales. It’s like, how do I have a conversation with loved ones? How do I tell someone? I don’t want tacos tonight? I want lasagna. Like, it could be that as simple as that.

Chris Davis 45:17
Absolutely. And I find most people struggle with those conversations because they’re missing language. So anytime you have a resource like yours, that gives you language, to say what you really want to say what you need to to get what you want out of life, and business. Do so. So I can’t thank you enough, Ben, for jumping on the podcast, man, really appreciate it. I will make sure that, again, all of our show notes and links are accessible to you. Any parting words for for our listeners?

Ben Bressington 45:51
Yeah, we gave you some huge gold nuggets. The thing is, is you may suck when you try this with someone, right? And you may get it wrong. Yeah, we all do. But the thing is, is that shows your commitment to action and mastery. And one of the things I want people to be aware of is that confidence actually comes from the state of action. Whenever you think about that confidence is actually created after you’ve taken some action or done something. So you will get more confident with this. When you’ve said it three times, you’ll get more confidence with this. When you’ve when you felt the impact of it or you know where you fumble that and look, forget tonality in the first few versions. Just do it and start to come natural with it. And I can promise you, you’ll be like whoa, whoa, holy crap. Whoa, like, Yeah, it’s fine.

Chris Davis 46:44
Got it. Man. That was great. Great, great last words I will not add to them. Thank you for coming on to the podcast man. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The all systems go podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure that you’re subscribed at the time of recording the all systems go podcast is free to subscribe to and it can be found in Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts new episodes are released every Thursday. So make sure you’re subscribed so that you don’t miss out and while you’re at it, please leave us a five star rating and review to show some love but also to help future listeners more easily find the podcast so they can experience the value of goodness as well. We’ve compiled all resources mentioned on the podcast, as well as other resources that are extremely valuable and effective at helping you grow your marketing automation skills quickly and you can access them all at all systems go podcast calm. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I see you online. Automate responsibly, my friends