Paid Advertising on a Shoestring Budget feat. Naira Perez

Narrator 0:00
You’re listening to the off systems go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot. Learn how to deploy automated marketing and sale systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of automation bridge, Chris Davis

Chris Davis 0:33
All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The all systems go podcast where we invite startup founders and digital marketers to discuss strategies and software used to build automated marketing and sales systems at scale. I’m your host, Chris L. Davis, the founder of automation bridge, and on this episode, I have Nyra Perez, of the Portland Trailblazers, she has over two decades of marketing experience and she gets hurt she got her start in direct response marketing, direct response advertising, building brands on TV before that was even a thing. Just a quick note here. My kids still don’t know what a commercial is. They call everything ad because they grew up on YouTube and you know non TV. So it just takes me back to just how long you’ve been doing advertising. In the past she she has founded a Spring Hill digital to help startup small business and medium businesses to develop digital marketing strategies identify customer patterns and optimize return on investment in paid advertising. If you need a follower base if you want to increase your brand awareness, need more leads want to advertise more on on Instacart feature more products all of it can be done she’s done it through paid advertising in the past is landed her in a very unique position. Now Naira, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Naira Perez 2:06
Hi, thank you for having me. I’m doing just fine.

Chris Davis 2:10
Yes, yes. And I’m glad to have you on so we can discuss advertising on a shoestring budget, and when to determine when to start putting money into it what to expect. But before we jump into today’s topic, give us a little bit about your background, you, you probably you’re probably the most unique right now, in terms of what you were doing being so similar to a lot of the a lot of our listeners and audience to something totally different than what anybody in our audience has probably done. And that’s achieved marketing at a high level for a major NBA NBA team.

Unknown Speaker 2:50
Yes, I’m going against the current a lot of people are leaving their organization or corporate jobs to go and freelance and do their own thing. And I’m actually just turning the corner and doing the opposite. So yeah, I have worked in advertising agencies for a long time. That’s what I had done all the way up to entering the Portland Trailblazers. The thing is, I did advertising for TV, I did advertising, radio, everything that was direct to consumer. Then I went into digital advertising, and I stayed with agencies. But I saw a need for startups to get the same kind of advice and experience then be companies with big budgets were getting. So I went more out of love for the small intrapreneur than anything. I went out and started my own business, which was Springhill digital, and I build a team. And that’s what we did for five years we help a lot of brands start up their journey and start up their, their way to profitability. They normally start us you know, it’s me my credit car and in a lot of dreams, and we got them to be a real company. We also help small to medium companies that had no pay media department. There is a lot of marketing specialists. There is wonderful people in this industry. But it’s very difficult to start from zero I pay media department. So we will fill in that void and get companies that were really fun companies. I had an ice cream company, how cool is that? And help them with that part of their marketing and get them into digital and get them into seeing what the media is all about. So last year I decided to change course a little bit. And concentrate on helping somebody that already has a department, somebody that is innovative, to, you know, be even more innovative, have a strategy and just change a little bit of what I was doing, I have to say that the Portland Trailblazers is, from all the companies I have seen in my, in my career, it’s a very innovative team. They are not afraid of trying new things. They’re not afraid of pushing the boundaries. And to be honest with you, that’s what attracted me to this position, this opportunity. Somebody’s doing that in digital marketing. That is just pure, fun. And there is nothing more rewarding than having fun at work. So that’s why I turn around. And indeed the opposite. Everybody’s going left and I’m like, I’m doing right.

Chris Davis 6:00
Which is admirable. And I think that when you when you look at just how much you’ve accomplished thus far, if anybody’s earned it, you have, right? That feels good, that feels good. Yeah, and good on you. Because there’s, you know, there is a lot of the the norm is to go against it. And by some means you look weaker or cheaper, cheaper, if you’re not out here, gritten, like the entrepreneur, and I’ve never subscribed to it. Um, there was a time where I was drinking that juice, but I spit it out. I don’t carry it in my in my house anymore. There, there are many ways to success, many paths to success. And I think that’s the best segue into the many paths to success with paid advertising. And I’ll say this, I’ll say this, I’ve done it wrong. I’ve done it wrong more than once. And I’ve witnessed it go wrong, more than I’ve seen it go right. And I don’t believe it’s because advertisers are ignorant, or people have the wrong expectations. I feel like it’s very finding an advertising strategy. And somebody to do that for your business is very much like finding a mate, you know, or a good friend, there’s got to be so much alignment between the two, because they’re so synchronous between the marketing, the sales and the advertising, that if somebody just comes in, say, hey, we advertise this way, and it doesn’t fit that business model. Both could be right, and get a wrong output. So I’ve seen many people waste money. I’ve seen many people approach it with the wrong perspective. So I wanted to give you the floor and just walk through, how should somebody be thinking for First off, how do I self assess? Am I ready for paid advertising?

Unknown Speaker 8:07
Yeah, that’s actually a very good question, no matter what you’re the size of your organization, and you need to think about what do you have in house? What what is it that I have in house that I am doing that I can maintain? And I can scale? So for example, whenever you’re putting money in your marketing, in your advertising, you’re going to bring new audiences, you’re going to you’re going to bring leads, you’re going to bring new customers? Can you handle that? And everybody will say yes, because more sales means more money. But it also means more volume of a lot of things. More volume of complaints, more volume of engagement, more volume of leads that need to be tracked. So know that it doesn’t only bring additional sales, it brings a lot of other things that we think we need to think about. So let’s let’s figure out if you can handle that. If you have the systems to support the additional volume, then yes, let’s start investing. Because if there’s an I’m going to tell you that the most frustrating part of being an advertising agency was bringing leads to a customer that did nothing with them, or that let them get lost in their system, or, you know, didn’t take advantage of the leads by nurturing them. If they didn’t convert into a sale than they were. They were discarded. That’s not how you have to approach paid. You have to approach paid as one we’re going to learn because we’re going to get new people that have never heard of us and to We need to take care of whoever is coming, we’re going to get new feedback that we have never gotten before. And we’re gonna have to accept it. And you know what, sometimes may we may fail, and we may have to change course. So once you have accepted all of those things, let’s go ahead and invest the money in your advertising. But for to minimize risk. Let’s make sure that we track the process. And this is number one thing about pay media track as much as possible. Because otherwise, you may be losing money. And you don’t know where

Chris Davis 10:44
yes, yes, I, um, so my first experience with paid with a paid advertiser, his name was Andrew Andrew, sure, at lead pages. And we had such a great relationship because I built the system. And I built it to scale. And he will, as an advertiser, he’s like, wait a minute, we can keep pouring leads into this thing. Like he wasn’t used to that it was like, at some point, we got to turn the faucet off. But yeah, you mean to tell me you have a system that keeps them flowing through. And it became this really fun back and forth, where it’s like, hey, wait a minute, these leads are coming coming through, I need to add more to the system, then I expand the system. He’s like, Oh, wait, we can increase the budget. So that was my first time experiencing paid advertising like that. And that was probably the apex because after that, I’ve seen companies of all sizes struggle. These are not just the starters, these are companies who have millions in the only difference that I see a lot of times is that they can lose a million on advertising and still remain a profitable company. Yeah, you can lose 20,000 10,000 50,000 on advertising. So the first check is do you have the systems in place, which you’re listening to the all systems go podcast. So this is what we do. And now you’re just seeing the added benefit of that? Once I have the systems in place. And I feel I’ve said, Okay, I’ve got systems in place, my lead generation just doesn’t seem to be working. I feel like my product could sell more. I start eyeing paid advertising. Is there anything I should be looking at first, I’ve got systems, I’ve got some customers, should I maximize organic first, like what what is the logical next step before going into into paid media for success?

Unknown Speaker 12:39
If you have organic, which I hope you do, but if you have organic, look at your organic, look at the content that is performing well look at the content that actually represents you the best, and that your audience really enjoys consuming, because that’s the content that we’re going to start with in paid media. Paid media is no longer sitting in front of the TV and some brand feeds you whatever advertising they won. And yeah, no big paid media has become part of the conversation, part of establishing a relationship with new people. So these is important to understand. Because if you give them content that was not thought out very well. Or if you give them content that doesn’t resonate with them, then you’re going to lose money. And it’s all about efficiency. It’s all about return on investment. So let’s make sure that the content is valuable, you’re giving them something before asking them for anything. And yes, that can be done in paid media that can be done in advertising. And then another thing to remember is, sometimes these will be the first and the only time that a customer a possible customer, a member of your audience will give you the time of day. If you fail or it you may not have another opportunity, they made this regard, your your message for the future. So just really pay attention to that content. That’s another mistake that I saw a lot of especially little startups that don’t have big creative budgets or something like that. They will put out there something whatever. Let’s see how it does. Yeah, that’s the wrong thing. No, again, they’re saying you don’t have budget. Let’s go to your organic. Let’s see what kind of content is working, and let’s borrow it from it. So or or copy it or getting inspiration from it. If you don’t have enough budget to create something new and exciting. So that is something like that first step needs to be thought out.

Chris Davis 14:53
Yeah, I I liken it often to listening and a lot of times People are really good talkers. I can create content. I can put videos on social media. I can push, push, push. But when it comes time to listen, listen, listen. What are people saying? And I’m not talking about just in the comments, I’m talking about looking at your analytics, what pages are they visiting, looking at your email, open rates, which emails are they opening the most, so you have some idea of what your audience is looking for from you and getting value from you. So you’re not starting with this blank, this blank slate, the last thing any experience advertiser wants to hear is, hey, let’s just go try some stuff. Now granted, if they’ve got 1000s and 1000s, of dollars a day to say, hey, look, I’ve got this budget, I’ve got to burn it. I’m sure. A savvy advertiser will find somewhere to start. But I bet that conversation is gonna always start with Hey, so what do we know already? What, what and who do you have access to? Or who can we quickly get access to, to just to get some preliminary data get a feel or for so I have this a better idea what other companies are in your industry? There’s some kind of data that you provided?

Unknown Speaker 16:15
Oh, there is there’s so much data out there, let’s say as an example, that the most difficult scenario is somebody that comes in the market. And they’re starting from absolutely zero, right? Preparing somebody as a startup, they’re just starting from zero, they created a product, or a service that they feel is going to succeed, or they feel that the market needs. So as, as you mentioned, we go in and we looked at, okay, what are other people doing one? Just in general? What are your competitors? Because every company has a competitor? What are your competitors doing? And also, if they are not using your product right now, or your service? What are they doing to solve their problem? Because we go back to every person has a problem that needs a solution. And then the steps are to find out, are they aware that there is a problem that that problem can have a solution? If they know that that problem has a solution? How do we motivate them to search for the solution? And the first step will be how do we take them from looking actively looking for a solution to considering our brand for that solution? How do we you know, enlighten them to our presence, and that we can be a solution for them. So those are the steps. Even if you start from zero, those steps can always be developed. Whenever I had the ice cream company as a client, I was not in charge of their organic, but I followed in Instagram, so many ice cream companies, like my Instagram was filled with ice cream. But then on top of that, if you’re not eating ice cream for the third, what are you eating? I had candy in there, I had, I had everything that you can imagine. They had products that were vegetarian. So I followed every vegetarian influencer out there, how are they presenting the food? How are they are talking about the properties of being vegetarian. So all of those things, give you an idea of the last thing, which is trends. So you had your competitors, you had people, you know, solving their problem with other brands, or their products. The third one eats trends, because it’s the message that audiences are actually digesting. That’s how they’re digesting information. So that’s where tick tock is a trendsetter, right, challenges and dances and anything that you can see how are people digesting the information that they are receiving? Because there’s so much information you’re drowning in information every day. So you’re going to pick the most delicious one. So how can I make my information? Be the leashes enough for audiences to digest

Chris Davis 19:13
it? Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, this is this is really good. We’ve got our systems in place that allows us to go look at our data and analytics to have a good starting point. Now I’ve got my wallet out, I’m opening it up is not as much in there as I would like for it to be, but I want to get started. So how do I take this shoestring budget of mine and get some fuel get some leads coming in? What what do I expect? Is there a certain amount of spin per day? Is there a certain amount of leads like what does that shoestring budget look like?

Unknown Speaker 19:48
a shoestring budget, and it looks different for different companies, obviously. But we’ve done as little as $5 a day, which is digestible for somebody that that that’s putting it in there. Great car. So it depends on where your audiences that’s why all these homework that seem tedious is looking at the audience looking at the content, looking at all of these things, you need to find out where your audience is, and then that will determine the channels. That’s the first step. Let’s see, where are they? I’m going to tell you that ranking from more expensive to less expensive. LinkedIn is probably one of the most expensive channels that you can go into. They their audiences very specific, you can target them in certain ways. And so your cost per click, if a cost per click in LinkedIn, let’s say is $15. You know, in comparison, facebook click is 1.5. dollars, you know, for the same sort of product. So you need to think really careful about how many, how many clicks do you need, how much volume that you need. And if Link is the place to be because your audience, it’s only LinkedIn, then let’s plan for it. But that’s a different planning, than if you go to Tik Tok, where your CPMs your cost per 1000, your cost of advertising is really, really inexpensive. But that’s not a place for a software that you know, for billing in dentist offices or something like that, that may not be the place. That’s not where you’re going to find your audience. So the first thing is, where’s my audience, then that will determine the channels that will determine the content that will determine the message? Is there a normal month, monthly budget, I would say at least just even considering the cheapest channel. Let’s say you’re considering like a big dawg, Facebook, Instagram, at least you should do 500 to 1000, which seems like a lot. But remember, that’s going to bring you new volume, that’s going to bring you feedback that’s going to bring you a lot of learnings. Can you do it for less? Absolutely. But then you have to wait longer. Because you’re not going to get that volume, then, you know, a higher budget will get you so sometimes we want to fail fast. Learn, regroup, and then try it again. And sometimes you just have to go slow and be patient. And maybe it is whenever you’re testing those systems that you have set up. You think you have it all right. It’s like okay, let’s test them and start trickling it leads to killing sales, and see if everything works. And then you scale up. And sometimes you’re like, let’s let it let’s see what happens. And then just turn it off and evaluate. So it depends a lot, we choose the most popular marketer answer ever. Yes.

Chris Davis 22:58
So many considerations, right? Yes, yes,

Naira Perez 23:02
there’s so many things to consider.

Chris Davis 23:04
And I think that, um, you know, when you when you talk about failing fast, you, you also have to understand that you may have to tweak the system. Absolutely the same system used for organic or the same system use for strategic partnerships may not work as well for paid advertising that that doesn’t mean that for whatever reason your product isn’t is no longer a fit. It’s just the intent because every audience or every channel that you use to reach your audience, it has different intent. If I’m advertising on YouTube, well, my intent is different. I’m searching for something on YouTube. Whereas on Facebook, I’m not searching for anything. There are times where I’ll go to Facebook just to literally look at ads. But I think I’m a rarity in that nobody goes on Facebook, to look at ads, you know. So it’s more disruptive than anything. So you have to take that into account. And then in terms of return, should people be expecting Hey, I listened to the podcast with with naira. I got everything in place. I’m doing $1,000 a month. Where’s the money? Where where’s the return? What would you say? Again? It all depends in there there is I know, it’s industry specific. But if you could ballpark, a duration of time before you can really start to anticipate consistent returns is that more of a 3096 month type of duration. So that you know, hey, at least have this much to withstand the first month or two or what how does that how does that look?

Unknown Speaker 24:44
Yeah, no, that’s an excellent question. So before I answer it, and I’m going to tell you that your portfolio in advertising if you’re doing $1,000 can be divided by intent. Like you were saying. Have some Something that will take the low hanging fruit, that will be high conversion, which could be search, or could be YouTube, or it could be Pinterest. Pinterest is basically a search engine for different topics. And so do some in high conversion, high intent. And then do some in branding, that’s your Facebook, your Instagram, your Tiktok, even your LinkedIn. Those are branding, those are what you are saying, people are not thinking about their problem right now that they need to be sold, they just want to catch up with friends and family and influencers, but they’re not actively seeking a solution. If you diversify, then you’ll you’ll start finding out where your audience is. And if it’s more profitable, to just go with high conversion, and concentrate on those searches. Or if actually, branding is bringing you leads that then you can nurture for the future, you can like evolve, educate. So if you can diversify your portfolio, when talking when planning your paid media even better. Now return on investment, it’s gonna depend on that diversification it’s going to depend on if you go all in into branding, it’s probably going to take anywhere from three to six months to get any returns. If you’re going to for low for high intent and high conversion, the searches Google Search Microsoft search, it was called Bing, before Yahoo, all these search engines, then that could shorten that could be shorter, and you could have higher high returns in like one two months, just as soon as you get your keyword optimized keywords list, optimize your ad, you know, copy or fix all of that, then you could start getting a return on investment right away. But I would, I would discourage you from going only to one or another I think brands tend to concentrate on short term gains. And they kind of forget that there is a long term plan that they need to do as well, I had a, I had a client at one time, they were a software for four offices. And they were advertising on LinkedIn and LinkedIn was giving them a lot of leads. But they weren’t converting right away. This was a very expensive software. And in their mind, they thought that it will take six months to convert a lead to a sale, but he didn’t. So they got a lot of leads that weren’t converting, but search was doing great. So they just transferred all their budget to search. So come to realize that their life, the life of a lead was actually two years. So two years after we gave them leads in LinkedIn, those leads started converting and it started make making LinkedIn, an amazing source of leads an amazing source of sales. And those sales were so much more qualified. They were getting higher price products from them, like the top end, instead of search was giving them returns right away. But it was the cheaper product but more inexpensive. Yeah. So think about these whenever you’re actually planning. Do you know how much it takes to convert a lead? Do you know the quality of the lead? And that will let you know when you’re going to start seeing profitability. They these client in particular is extreme. They saw profitability from LinkedIn two years after the fact. But what happened once they converted all the leads? Then they had to restart the process all over again, because they gave up?

Chris Davis 29:02
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it’s safe to say it is one of the one of those long term strategies you commit to just like SEO, just like anything you do in business, right? You don’t do it for one time it works. And then you’re like, Okay, I’m done. You keep working it and with with with paid advertising, what I’ve learned is that data dominates. Yeah, right. Like if you have the data, and you have the the team or the people to help you understand what that what that data is saying. That’s going to put you in a much better position to capitalize on going forward. I want to do some, some some rapid questions for you. troubleshooting, and I know you’ve probably seen these trends time and time again. So I’m not looking for the the right answer. I’m just looking for what you’ve seen in your experience, you know, profound experience you have So what happens when you have what would you recommend to a company who’s been selling organically, let’s say, via Facebook Messenger, one on one communication very well. And they start to take that messaging and they say, Hey, these are my people, they start pouring into advertising will say on Facebook, because that’s where they’re at. And they’re getting low, click throughs. And they come to you and say, Wait a minute, I convert more when I direct message people, if you have $1,000, what’s going on? What Yeah, what is your response there.

Unknown Speaker 30:39
So it’s two parts. One, you can advertise on Messenger, if you want to continue that type of communication, then you can actually paid do pay media through messenger and get new audiences. But to is, think about the relationship that you’re talking about messenger, or any kind of one on one communication is a very private, very intimate messaging, you cannot take that and make it public. You cannot just give those people know you, those people somehow got to know you lifted their hand and say, I want to know more. And then they started a conversation, they started a relationship, but you cannot take what you learned from 20 years of marriage and apply it to dating again. Because that’s, that’s work. So just think about these plays, a lot of people that may not be your audience are receiving that message. So one, target your audience more accurately. And that could be a problem and to change the messaging, because it’s not the same as what you say in public. It’s not the same as what you say intimate, you know, with friends and family and a glass of wine.

Chris Davis 31:53
Yeah. And, you know, I say goes both ways, know when to stop speaking publicly and start speaking privately.

Naira Perez 32:02
Exactly.

Chris Davis 32:05
Exactly. The public communication may get their attention. But once you have it, and they’ve got their information, that’s now a private communication, don’t keep speaking to them broadly. And saying, Hey, if you Hey, hey there, Hey, friend, you know, Oh, yeah. Talk to them. And interview. All right. Great. Love that answer. All right. Next up, I’ve got a service, a local service based business. And everybody has told me, local Google search is the way here’s the problem. I’m not just local. I take clients from all over. And I feel like I’ve exhausted all the local, the local businesses, and I do I want to tap into a bigger market and expand, I know what works locally. How do I take that into an advertising medium? And what what channels Should I look at?

Unknown Speaker 33:02
Yeah, well, the channels again, depends on your audience. We talked about it right? Where is your audience? What kind of messaging? I would say, it’s kind of a reverse thought here? Yeah, bear with me. So you know, what works local, because you’re in the community, you know, the specifics of your community, what’s quirky about them, that they’re proud of what they cannot stand about, blah, blah. So you know, those those things that make you target them so well. Now, to go national, or, or international, you have to take those things out. Those things that make you special for a local audience may actually not work in a broader again, is that messaging is that the conversation that you’re having with your friends, or your neighbors is not the same that is gonna work for somebody leaving, you know, 1000 miles away. So you actually substract that a little bit without losing your identity, obviously, but you substract what makes you so attractive to the local market, and then go with a more general messaging, and then start adding layers a little bit back up to see where the tolerance for that very specific person persona that you have built, where the tolerance is. And this is more, again, more about the messaging, but also about the audience. You will start with the audience that is more similar to your local audience, and then start adding a little bit more as well of generality. So as an example, in Facebook, you can create a look alike, meaning you upload a list of emails or phone numbers or something that is particular to you that you own, always that you own, you own that list. You go to Facebook, Facebook creates a persona Then he says, okay, these personas, now I started looking for people that look like this person, you can go look at like 1%, I think that anyone is 1% or 2% of the US. So it’s like about 2 million, or you’re going to start going 5%, which every time that you increase that audience, you get a little bit farther away from the persona. Are you gonna go 10%. So you can start getting away from that person and see how your messaging is coming through. So that’s, it’s a two part. It’s your messaging, and easier Audience

Chris Davis 35:35
Yeah. Know what to say? And who to say it to, except there will be how to say it. Because sometimes, you’re not gonna get 30 seconds, you’re not gonna three minutes, you may just get five seconds, three seconds, how can you say? How can you make that headline pop? To where they’re rolling in there? Oh, wait, that that’s that disrupted? Me. So alright, um, two more. One is what advice do you have for the company that says, No, I listen. I so believe you. But I believed the previous advertiser, and I gave them $30,000. And I’ve got five leads to show for it, of which none converted? I truly I want to believe pay advertising works. But yes, don’t have the history with it. What would you say to that company that’s been burned? For whatever reason could be their own? Yeah, be the fault of others? How should they reengage with this paid advertising, in the sense of Is any of that data that they collected, is of any use to the unpaid advertiser going forward?

Unknown Speaker 36:48
I always love seeing data, no matter if the data was a failure or not. I’ve always learned something. And I cannot tell you how many clients I got at Springhill. Digital, that came to me because they had been burned by a previous advertising. And so referral said, okay, she’s different, you can trust her full transparency. A lot of people come with a burn, burn, advertising, pay media experience. You know, I love my industry. But there are people out there that you know, follow their own thoughts. And maybe those thoughts don’t work for everybody. So what would I say is like, let’s look at the data. Let’s see what we can learn from all those $30,000 that you pour in, they generated something. So let’s see what we learn. Let’s see where we can take these crumbling pie and make it into something else. Yeah. So we start there. And once they see that there’s something to be learned once that you take the pain out of having spent so much money and have nothing to show for once you show them what they got, which sometimes it’s really good learnings, and that he can be applied to improve the next step, then, and then he’s when you start making headway, like they got something. They’re not they don’t they don’t they have not that will that they put up and there’s like no more paid media ever again, it starts coming down. It’s like, well, maybe we’ll maybe. But also, like, the worst case scenario that I’ve gotten many times is, whenever the previous advertiser actually didn’t give them any data, because the previous advertiser own their account, or, you know, things like these, those are really painful. Those are actually even more difficult, because there’s nothing to show for nothing, right? There is nothing I can take and say, let’s learn from it, because there’s nothing to learn from. So I have to go back and just kind of look for those nuggets of information in conversations that they had before or in their own company, or in their own Google Analytics. Normally they do on their own Google Analytics. So I have to look for the information a little bit harder. But there’s always something to be learned, even if they fail, sometimes you have to fail to learn. So and then we start little by little, we start, we start with pilot programs. We start with tests. We do several variations, and then we start learning again, but at a much lower risk. And what really seals it for people that have been burned before is being completely honest and transparent about why are we doing these things. If they fail, this is what we’re going to learn if they succeed. This is how we’re going to scale it up. And just full transparency.

Chris Davis 39:47
Yeah, yeah. All right. Last one. I imagine when you had the ice cream, the ice cream business, and you were running the advertising for them, there was a different challenge and also A different approach because it was so niche, right? There’s not a whole lot of competition out there. What about markets like myself? Where it’s marketers marketing to marketers? People know the tricks and the tactics? In your experience? Have you seen that you have to get more creative? Or is it just really staying true to dive in deep into the data? And understanding how to communicate to them? Or do I do I need to? I see, I see all kinds of ads. You know, I see people shouting in your, in your timeline, I see them doing work creative, like gifs, you know, all kinds of imagery. What have you seen in these really competitive markets? Is it still clarity over creativity? Are there things that you can do to stand out? Or is it just kind of like, you’re just gonna have to pay more to play in those types of industries.

Unknown Speaker 40:54
It’s not that you have to pay more to play exclusively, I mean, more competition always means higher cost of being there is supply and demand. And it is about talking about the topics that you are an expert at, talking, talking about the topics that you like talking about, and that you can do in a consistent manner. Because the hyper creativity comes and goes, those people that will jump on a very fast trend, and then that trend dies, even though I told you to look at trends. But if you cannot do this consistently, then then you have a one hit wonder and that’s it. So and follow through. That’s where a lot of people in your industry fall is yes, it’s it’s great at the very beginning, and then there’s no follow through, then there is no systems do take you all the way home, there is just a break into communication, or you find different landing pages with different offers. And then you start re stressing this relationship. like wait a minute, today, you told me it was 20% off, but tomorrow, you told me 60% off, and then you go back to 5%. So I say in these industries that are very competitive, where people want to stand out really fast, really quick. It is more about the long journey, the consistent journey, and the expert advice and expert voice. And I just if I had to choose one word, it will be consistency.

Chris Davis 42:27
Yeah. Yeah, I think it was Dr. King is consistency, has its as has its way, or has its place has has its place. And it’s hard to be consistent in in competitive markets. I wholeheartedly agree, just being consistent is a differentiator, because people come and go, because everybody’s trying to jump on the trends everybody’s trying to get in and get out. And if you could just stand the test of time. Right? Yeah, this didn’t look at your your data, keep learning. Keep learning about your

Unknown Speaker 43:03
audience. Yeah, because being consistent doesn’t mean that you’re not an innovator, that has nothing to do with it, which a lot of people think it’s one or the other, you’re consistent in your message, and you’re consistent in your experience. And you can continue innovating, nothing to do with it. So yeah, be be there. For the people that are looking for a solution that it’s like you said, gonna stand the test of time. And because I remember, you know, like four years ago, it was all about the hacks in phase where like, if you turn it on and off your ad in the morning, and then in the afternoon, then when it comes back, then he has, you know, all these super fast hack, just everybody should get away from from those people. Because that one is not going to work for everybody and to their noggin giving you the quality traffic, the quality lead and the quality clicks that you’re looking for. So yeah, I remember that was a trend, quick hacks. And I’ve always disliked that. So advertising the same as you advertising in a very crowded market. Whenever I had a spring digital. That was that was challenging, but we stayed true to who we were and what we believed in, which was Do your homework before you go into a meeting, get your systems in place. And test, always test test test as even if things are going well continue testing. Yeah.

Chris Davis 44:37
Yep. And I will say on on the other side. If you’re somebody looking for a paid advertising expert, and they don’t ask you to do your homework, run the other way. Okay, if the first thing they’re saying is, hey, give me access to all your accounts. We’ll get these ads running in no time. Paul Wait a minute, hold on. Are you going to look at the data? Oh, well, we’ll look at it on the way. We just need to get these ads up and running. It’s like, oh, what? Timeout. Okay, thank you. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. But no, thank you. So there is some self checking on both sides. And I as you were talking, I did remember, it wasn’t consistency. It was longevity that was driving me crazy. Dr. King had this place. But I want Naira, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. And talking about paid advertising, especially on a shoestring budget. If you want to get the most out of your dollars, what I’m hearing is in mind, the data might listen to what people are saying, don’t start from a blank plate. Okay, a blank slate, blank canvas, whatever the case is, get some marketing in place, if you don’t have the money to advertise, you definitely have time to create content that’s engaging. So you can at least figure out how people are responding. And once you figure out where your audience is, that’s going to be the indicator of what channel to use to reach them. Some people, they their audiences 100% on Instagram, it’s not going to do much for them to be on Microsoft search, or even maybe even Google, right? If that’s where it is I it’s just like, whenever I recreate a video on Instagram, I get all of these followers. But for some reason my ads over here aren’t working. And in the common sense, my will be like, Whoa, just pay attention to what’s working. But sometimes we’re are we’re convinced before we should be convinced that yeah, particular thing is the way to go because it worked for someone else. We’re trying to fit the shoe that other people wore. So thank you for sharing that. Congratulations on your opportunity. With the trailblazers, if anybody wants to find out more about you the work that you’re currently doing or have done, just want to get in touch, where should they go?

Unknown Speaker 47:00
They should go to LinkedIn. I am right there. There’s no many Naira in the world, but even less than work at the Portland Trailblazers. So yeah, go to my LinkedIn page. And yeah, just search for Naira Perez and you should find me really easy.

Chris Davis 47:21
Okay, what do you all a favor, listeners will add her LinkedIn link to the show notes. So you just have to click right there and it’ll take you right to LinkedIn, connect with an IRA. Go to the games, go to the games. If you’re if you’re in Portland, you’re probably going to be experiencing some real results of the or work so you can see it live and in action again now. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Naira Perez 47:48
Thank you for inviting me. This was a lot of fun. Yes,

Chris Davis 47:50
yes. Yes. Great. I’ll see you online. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The all systems go podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure that you’re subscribed at the time of recording the all systems go podcast is free to subscribe to, and it can be found in Apple podcast, Google podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts new episodes are released every Thursday. So make sure you’re subscribed so that you don’t miss out and while you’re at it, please leave us a five star rating and review to show some love but also to help future listeners more easily find the podcast so they can experience the value of goodness as well. We’ve compiled all resources mentioned on the podcast, as well as other resources that are extremely valuable and effective at helping you grow your marketing automation skills quickly and you can access them all at allsystemsgopodcast.com Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I see you online. Automate responsibly my friends

Narrator 0:00
You’re listening to the off systems go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot. Learn how to deploy automated marketing and sale systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of automation bridge, Chris Davis

Chris Davis 0:33
All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The all systems go podcast where we invite startup founders and digital marketers to discuss strategies and software used to build automated marketing and sales systems at scale. I’m your host, Chris L. Davis, the founder of automation bridge, and on this episode, I have Nyra Perez, of the Portland Trailblazers, she has over two decades of marketing experience and she gets hurt she got her start in direct response marketing, direct response advertising, building brands on TV before that was even a thing. Just a quick note here. My kids still don’t know what a commercial is. They call everything ad because they grew up on YouTube and you know non TV. So it just takes me back to just how long you’ve been doing advertising. In the past she she has founded a Spring Hill digital to help startup small business and medium businesses to develop digital marketing strategies identify customer patterns and optimize return on investment in paid advertising. If you need a follower base if you want to increase your brand awareness, need more leads want to advertise more on on Instacart feature more products all of it can be done she’s done it through paid advertising in the past is landed her in a very unique position. Now Naira, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Naira Perez 2:06
Hi, thank you for having me. I’m doing just fine.

Chris Davis 2:10
Yes, yes. And I’m glad to have you on so we can discuss advertising on a shoestring budget, and when to determine when to start putting money into it what to expect. But before we jump into today’s topic, give us a little bit about your background, you, you probably you’re probably the most unique right now, in terms of what you were doing being so similar to a lot of the a lot of our listeners and audience to something totally different than what anybody in our audience has probably done. And that’s achieved marketing at a high level for a major NBA NBA team.

Unknown Speaker 2:50
Yes, I’m going against the current a lot of people are leaving their organization or corporate jobs to go and freelance and do their own thing. And I’m actually just turning the corner and doing the opposite. So yeah, I have worked in advertising agencies for a long time. That’s what I had done all the way up to entering the Portland Trailblazers. The thing is, I did advertising for TV, I did advertising, radio, everything that was direct to consumer. Then I went into digital advertising, and I stayed with agencies. But I saw a need for startups to get the same kind of advice and experience then be companies with big budgets were getting. So I went more out of love for the small intrapreneur than anything. I went out and started my own business, which was Springhill digital, and I build a team. And that’s what we did for five years we help a lot of brands start up their journey and start up their, their way to profitability. They normally start us you know, it’s me my credit car and in a lot of dreams, and we got them to be a real company. We also help small to medium companies that had no pay media department. There is a lot of marketing specialists. There is wonderful people in this industry. But it’s very difficult to start from zero I pay media department. So we will fill in that void and get companies that were really fun companies. I had an ice cream company, how cool is that? And help them with that part of their marketing and get them into digital and get them into seeing what the media is all about. So last year I decided to change course a little bit. And concentrate on helping somebody that already has a department, somebody that is innovative, to, you know, be even more innovative, have a strategy and just change a little bit of what I was doing, I have to say that the Portland Trailblazers is, from all the companies I have seen in my, in my career, it’s a very innovative team. They are not afraid of trying new things. They’re not afraid of pushing the boundaries. And to be honest with you, that’s what attracted me to this position, this opportunity. Somebody’s doing that in digital marketing. That is just pure, fun. And there is nothing more rewarding than having fun at work. So that’s why I turn around. And indeed the opposite. Everybody’s going left and I’m like, I’m doing right.

Chris Davis 6:00
Which is admirable. And I think that when you when you look at just how much you’ve accomplished thus far, if anybody’s earned it, you have, right? That feels good, that feels good. Yeah, and good on you. Because there’s, you know, there is a lot of the the norm is to go against it. And by some means you look weaker or cheaper, cheaper, if you’re not out here, gritten, like the entrepreneur, and I’ve never subscribed to it. Um, there was a time where I was drinking that juice, but I spit it out. I don’t carry it in my in my house anymore. There, there are many ways to success, many paths to success. And I think that’s the best segue into the many paths to success with paid advertising. And I’ll say this, I’ll say this, I’ve done it wrong. I’ve done it wrong more than once. And I’ve witnessed it go wrong, more than I’ve seen it go right. And I don’t believe it’s because advertisers are ignorant, or people have the wrong expectations. I feel like it’s very finding an advertising strategy. And somebody to do that for your business is very much like finding a mate, you know, or a good friend, there’s got to be so much alignment between the two, because they’re so synchronous between the marketing, the sales and the advertising, that if somebody just comes in, say, hey, we advertise this way, and it doesn’t fit that business model. Both could be right, and get a wrong output. So I’ve seen many people waste money. I’ve seen many people approach it with the wrong perspective. So I wanted to give you the floor and just walk through, how should somebody be thinking for First off, how do I self assess? Am I ready for paid advertising?

Unknown Speaker 8:07
Yeah, that’s actually a very good question, no matter what you’re the size of your organization, and you need to think about what do you have in house? What what is it that I have in house that I am doing that I can maintain? And I can scale? So for example, whenever you’re putting money in your marketing, in your advertising, you’re going to bring new audiences, you’re going to you’re going to bring leads, you’re going to bring new customers? Can you handle that? And everybody will say yes, because more sales means more money. But it also means more volume of a lot of things. More volume of complaints, more volume of engagement, more volume of leads that need to be tracked. So know that it doesn’t only bring additional sales, it brings a lot of other things that we think we need to think about. So let’s let’s figure out if you can handle that. If you have the systems to support the additional volume, then yes, let’s start investing. Because if there’s an I’m going to tell you that the most frustrating part of being an advertising agency was bringing leads to a customer that did nothing with them, or that let them get lost in their system, or, you know, didn’t take advantage of the leads by nurturing them. If they didn’t convert into a sale than they were. They were discarded. That’s not how you have to approach paid. You have to approach paid as one we’re going to learn because we’re going to get new people that have never heard of us and to We need to take care of whoever is coming, we’re going to get new feedback that we have never gotten before. And we’re gonna have to accept it. And you know what, sometimes may we may fail, and we may have to change course. So once you have accepted all of those things, let’s go ahead and invest the money in your advertising. But for to minimize risk. Let’s make sure that we track the process. And this is number one thing about pay media track as much as possible. Because otherwise, you may be losing money. And you don’t know where

Chris Davis 10:44
yes, yes, I, um, so my first experience with paid with a paid advertiser, his name was Andrew Andrew, sure, at lead pages. And we had such a great relationship because I built the system. And I built it to scale. And he will, as an advertiser, he’s like, wait a minute, we can keep pouring leads into this thing. Like he wasn’t used to that it was like, at some point, we got to turn the faucet off. But yeah, you mean to tell me you have a system that keeps them flowing through. And it became this really fun back and forth, where it’s like, hey, wait a minute, these leads are coming coming through, I need to add more to the system, then I expand the system. He’s like, Oh, wait, we can increase the budget. So that was my first time experiencing paid advertising like that. And that was probably the apex because after that, I’ve seen companies of all sizes struggle. These are not just the starters, these are companies who have millions in the only difference that I see a lot of times is that they can lose a million on advertising and still remain a profitable company. Yeah, you can lose 20,000 10,000 50,000 on advertising. So the first check is do you have the systems in place, which you’re listening to the all systems go podcast. So this is what we do. And now you’re just seeing the added benefit of that? Once I have the systems in place. And I feel I’ve said, Okay, I’ve got systems in place, my lead generation just doesn’t seem to be working. I feel like my product could sell more. I start eyeing paid advertising. Is there anything I should be looking at first, I’ve got systems, I’ve got some customers, should I maximize organic first, like what what is the logical next step before going into into paid media for success?

Unknown Speaker 12:39
If you have organic, which I hope you do, but if you have organic, look at your organic, look at the content that is performing well look at the content that actually represents you the best, and that your audience really enjoys consuming, because that’s the content that we’re going to start with in paid media. Paid media is no longer sitting in front of the TV and some brand feeds you whatever advertising they won. And yeah, no big paid media has become part of the conversation, part of establishing a relationship with new people. So these is important to understand. Because if you give them content that was not thought out very well. Or if you give them content that doesn’t resonate with them, then you’re going to lose money. And it’s all about efficiency. It’s all about return on investment. So let’s make sure that the content is valuable, you’re giving them something before asking them for anything. And yes, that can be done in paid media that can be done in advertising. And then another thing to remember is, sometimes these will be the first and the only time that a customer a possible customer, a member of your audience will give you the time of day. If you fail or it you may not have another opportunity, they made this regard, your your message for the future. So just really pay attention to that content. That’s another mistake that I saw a lot of especially little startups that don’t have big creative budgets or something like that. They will put out there something whatever. Let’s see how it does. Yeah, that’s the wrong thing. No, again, they’re saying you don’t have budget. Let’s go to your organic. Let’s see what kind of content is working, and let’s borrow it from it. So or or copy it or getting inspiration from it. If you don’t have enough budget to create something new and exciting. So that is something like that first step needs to be thought out.

Chris Davis 14:53
Yeah, I I liken it often to listening and a lot of times People are really good talkers. I can create content. I can put videos on social media. I can push, push, push. But when it comes time to listen, listen, listen. What are people saying? And I’m not talking about just in the comments, I’m talking about looking at your analytics, what pages are they visiting, looking at your email, open rates, which emails are they opening the most, so you have some idea of what your audience is looking for from you and getting value from you. So you’re not starting with this blank, this blank slate, the last thing any experience advertiser wants to hear is, hey, let’s just go try some stuff. Now granted, if they’ve got 1000s and 1000s, of dollars a day to say, hey, look, I’ve got this budget, I’ve got to burn it. I’m sure. A savvy advertiser will find somewhere to start. But I bet that conversation is gonna always start with Hey, so what do we know already? What, what and who do you have access to? Or who can we quickly get access to, to just to get some preliminary data get a feel or for so I have this a better idea what other companies are in your industry? There’s some kind of data that you provided?

Unknown Speaker 16:15
Oh, there is there’s so much data out there, let’s say as an example, that the most difficult scenario is somebody that comes in the market. And they’re starting from absolutely zero, right? Preparing somebody as a startup, they’re just starting from zero, they created a product, or a service that they feel is going to succeed, or they feel that the market needs. So as, as you mentioned, we go in and we looked at, okay, what are other people doing one? Just in general? What are your competitors? Because every company has a competitor? What are your competitors doing? And also, if they are not using your product right now, or your service? What are they doing to solve their problem? Because we go back to every person has a problem that needs a solution. And then the steps are to find out, are they aware that there is a problem that that problem can have a solution? If they know that that problem has a solution? How do we motivate them to search for the solution? And the first step will be how do we take them from looking actively looking for a solution to considering our brand for that solution? How do we you know, enlighten them to our presence, and that we can be a solution for them. So those are the steps. Even if you start from zero, those steps can always be developed. Whenever I had the ice cream company as a client, I was not in charge of their organic, but I followed in Instagram, so many ice cream companies, like my Instagram was filled with ice cream. But then on top of that, if you’re not eating ice cream for the third, what are you eating? I had candy in there, I had, I had everything that you can imagine. They had products that were vegetarian. So I followed every vegetarian influencer out there, how are they presenting the food? How are they are talking about the properties of being vegetarian. So all of those things, give you an idea of the last thing, which is trends. So you had your competitors, you had people, you know, solving their problem with other brands, or their products. The third one eats trends, because it’s the message that audiences are actually digesting. That’s how they’re digesting information. So that’s where tick tock is a trendsetter, right, challenges and dances and anything that you can see how are people digesting the information that they are receiving? Because there’s so much information you’re drowning in information every day. So you’re going to pick the most delicious one. So how can I make my information? Be the leashes enough for audiences to digest

Chris Davis 19:13
it? Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, this is this is really good. We’ve got our systems in place that allows us to go look at our data and analytics to have a good starting point. Now I’ve got my wallet out, I’m opening it up is not as much in there as I would like for it to be, but I want to get started. So how do I take this shoestring budget of mine and get some fuel get some leads coming in? What what do I expect? Is there a certain amount of spin per day? Is there a certain amount of leads like what does that shoestring budget look like?

Unknown Speaker 19:48
a shoestring budget, and it looks different for different companies, obviously. But we’ve done as little as $5 a day, which is digestible for somebody that that that’s putting it in there. Great car. So it depends on where your audiences that’s why all these homework that seem tedious is looking at the audience looking at the content, looking at all of these things, you need to find out where your audience is, and then that will determine the channels. That’s the first step. Let’s see, where are they? I’m going to tell you that ranking from more expensive to less expensive. LinkedIn is probably one of the most expensive channels that you can go into. They their audiences very specific, you can target them in certain ways. And so your cost per click, if a cost per click in LinkedIn, let’s say is $15. You know, in comparison, facebook click is 1.5. dollars, you know, for the same sort of product. So you need to think really careful about how many, how many clicks do you need, how much volume that you need. And if Link is the place to be because your audience, it’s only LinkedIn, then let’s plan for it. But that’s a different planning, than if you go to Tik Tok, where your CPMs your cost per 1000, your cost of advertising is really, really inexpensive. But that’s not a place for a software that you know, for billing in dentist offices or something like that, that may not be the place. That’s not where you’re going to find your audience. So the first thing is, where’s my audience, then that will determine the channels that will determine the content that will determine the message? Is there a normal month, monthly budget, I would say at least just even considering the cheapest channel. Let’s say you’re considering like a big dawg, Facebook, Instagram, at least you should do 500 to 1000, which seems like a lot. But remember, that’s going to bring you new volume, that’s going to bring you feedback that’s going to bring you a lot of learnings. Can you do it for less? Absolutely. But then you have to wait longer. Because you’re not going to get that volume, then, you know, a higher budget will get you so sometimes we want to fail fast. Learn, regroup, and then try it again. And sometimes you just have to go slow and be patient. And maybe it is whenever you’re testing those systems that you have set up. You think you have it all right. It’s like okay, let’s test them and start trickling it leads to killing sales, and see if everything works. And then you scale up. And sometimes you’re like, let’s let it let’s see what happens. And then just turn it off and evaluate. So it depends a lot, we choose the most popular marketer answer ever. Yes.

Chris Davis 22:58
So many considerations, right? Yes, yes,

Naira Perez 23:02
there’s so many things to consider.

Chris Davis 23:04
And I think that, um, you know, when you when you talk about failing fast, you, you also have to understand that you may have to tweak the system. Absolutely the same system used for organic or the same system use for strategic partnerships may not work as well for paid advertising that that doesn’t mean that for whatever reason your product isn’t is no longer a fit. It’s just the intent because every audience or every channel that you use to reach your audience, it has different intent. If I’m advertising on YouTube, well, my intent is different. I’m searching for something on YouTube. Whereas on Facebook, I’m not searching for anything. There are times where I’ll go to Facebook just to literally look at ads. But I think I’m a rarity in that nobody goes on Facebook, to look at ads, you know. So it’s more disruptive than anything. So you have to take that into account. And then in terms of return, should people be expecting Hey, I listened to the podcast with with naira. I got everything in place. I’m doing $1,000 a month. Where’s the money? Where where’s the return? What would you say? Again? It all depends in there there is I know, it’s industry specific. But if you could ballpark, a duration of time before you can really start to anticipate consistent returns is that more of a 3096 month type of duration. So that you know, hey, at least have this much to withstand the first month or two or what how does that how does that look?

Unknown Speaker 24:44
Yeah, no, that’s an excellent question. So before I answer it, and I’m going to tell you that your portfolio in advertising if you’re doing $1,000 can be divided by intent. Like you were saying. Have some Something that will take the low hanging fruit, that will be high conversion, which could be search, or could be YouTube, or it could be Pinterest. Pinterest is basically a search engine for different topics. And so do some in high conversion, high intent. And then do some in branding, that’s your Facebook, your Instagram, your Tiktok, even your LinkedIn. Those are branding, those are what you are saying, people are not thinking about their problem right now that they need to be sold, they just want to catch up with friends and family and influencers, but they’re not actively seeking a solution. If you diversify, then you’ll you’ll start finding out where your audience is. And if it’s more profitable, to just go with high conversion, and concentrate on those searches. Or if actually, branding is bringing you leads that then you can nurture for the future, you can like evolve, educate. So if you can diversify your portfolio, when talking when planning your paid media even better. Now return on investment, it’s gonna depend on that diversification it’s going to depend on if you go all in into branding, it’s probably going to take anywhere from three to six months to get any returns. If you’re going to for low for high intent and high conversion, the searches Google Search Microsoft search, it was called Bing, before Yahoo, all these search engines, then that could shorten that could be shorter, and you could have higher high returns in like one two months, just as soon as you get your keyword optimized keywords list, optimize your ad, you know, copy or fix all of that, then you could start getting a return on investment right away. But I would, I would discourage you from going only to one or another I think brands tend to concentrate on short term gains. And they kind of forget that there is a long term plan that they need to do as well, I had a, I had a client at one time, they were a software for four offices. And they were advertising on LinkedIn and LinkedIn was giving them a lot of leads. But they weren’t converting right away. This was a very expensive software. And in their mind, they thought that it will take six months to convert a lead to a sale, but he didn’t. So they got a lot of leads that weren’t converting, but search was doing great. So they just transferred all their budget to search. So come to realize that their life, the life of a lead was actually two years. So two years after we gave them leads in LinkedIn, those leads started converting and it started make making LinkedIn, an amazing source of leads an amazing source of sales. And those sales were so much more qualified. They were getting higher price products from them, like the top end, instead of search was giving them returns right away. But it was the cheaper product but more inexpensive. Yeah. So think about these whenever you’re actually planning. Do you know how much it takes to convert a lead? Do you know the quality of the lead? And that will let you know when you’re going to start seeing profitability. They these client in particular is extreme. They saw profitability from LinkedIn two years after the fact. But what happened once they converted all the leads? Then they had to restart the process all over again, because they gave up?

Chris Davis 29:02
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think it’s safe to say it is one of the one of those long term strategies you commit to just like SEO, just like anything you do in business, right? You don’t do it for one time it works. And then you’re like, Okay, I’m done. You keep working it and with with with paid advertising, what I’ve learned is that data dominates. Yeah, right. Like if you have the data, and you have the the team or the people to help you understand what that what that data is saying. That’s going to put you in a much better position to capitalize on going forward. I want to do some, some some rapid questions for you. troubleshooting, and I know you’ve probably seen these trends time and time again. So I’m not looking for the the right answer. I’m just looking for what you’ve seen in your experience, you know, profound experience you have So what happens when you have what would you recommend to a company who’s been selling organically, let’s say, via Facebook Messenger, one on one communication very well. And they start to take that messaging and they say, Hey, these are my people, they start pouring into advertising will say on Facebook, because that’s where they’re at. And they’re getting low, click throughs. And they come to you and say, Wait a minute, I convert more when I direct message people, if you have $1,000, what’s going on? What Yeah, what is your response there.

Unknown Speaker 30:39
So it’s two parts. One, you can advertise on Messenger, if you want to continue that type of communication, then you can actually paid do pay media through messenger and get new audiences. But to is, think about the relationship that you’re talking about messenger, or any kind of one on one communication is a very private, very intimate messaging, you cannot take that and make it public. You cannot just give those people know you, those people somehow got to know you lifted their hand and say, I want to know more. And then they started a conversation, they started a relationship, but you cannot take what you learned from 20 years of marriage and apply it to dating again. Because that’s, that’s work. So just think about these plays, a lot of people that may not be your audience are receiving that message. So one, target your audience more accurately. And that could be a problem and to change the messaging, because it’s not the same as what you say in public. It’s not the same as what you say intimate, you know, with friends and family and a glass of wine.

Chris Davis 31:53
Yeah. And, you know, I say goes both ways, know when to stop speaking publicly and start speaking privately.

Naira Perez 32:02
Exactly.

Chris Davis 32:05
Exactly. The public communication may get their attention. But once you have it, and they’ve got their information, that’s now a private communication, don’t keep speaking to them broadly. And saying, Hey, if you Hey, hey there, Hey, friend, you know, Oh, yeah. Talk to them. And interview. All right. Great. Love that answer. All right. Next up, I’ve got a service, a local service based business. And everybody has told me, local Google search is the way here’s the problem. I’m not just local. I take clients from all over. And I feel like I’ve exhausted all the local, the local businesses, and I do I want to tap into a bigger market and expand, I know what works locally. How do I take that into an advertising medium? And what what channels Should I look at?

Unknown Speaker 33:02
Yeah, well, the channels again, depends on your audience. We talked about it right? Where is your audience? What kind of messaging? I would say, it’s kind of a reverse thought here? Yeah, bear with me. So you know, what works local, because you’re in the community, you know, the specifics of your community, what’s quirky about them, that they’re proud of what they cannot stand about, blah, blah. So you know, those those things that make you target them so well. Now, to go national, or, or international, you have to take those things out. Those things that make you special for a local audience may actually not work in a broader again, is that messaging is that the conversation that you’re having with your friends, or your neighbors is not the same that is gonna work for somebody leaving, you know, 1000 miles away. So you actually substract that a little bit without losing your identity, obviously, but you substract what makes you so attractive to the local market, and then go with a more general messaging, and then start adding layers a little bit back up to see where the tolerance for that very specific person persona that you have built, where the tolerance is. And this is more, again, more about the messaging, but also about the audience. You will start with the audience that is more similar to your local audience, and then start adding a little bit more as well of generality. So as an example, in Facebook, you can create a look alike, meaning you upload a list of emails or phone numbers or something that is particular to you that you own, always that you own, you own that list. You go to Facebook, Facebook creates a persona Then he says, okay, these personas, now I started looking for people that look like this person, you can go look at like 1%, I think that anyone is 1% or 2% of the US. So it’s like about 2 million, or you’re going to start going 5%, which every time that you increase that audience, you get a little bit farther away from the persona. Are you gonna go 10%. So you can start getting away from that person and see how your messaging is coming through. So that’s, it’s a two part. It’s your messaging, and easier Audience

Chris Davis 35:35
Yeah. Know what to say? And who to say it to, except there will be how to say it. Because sometimes, you’re not gonna get 30 seconds, you’re not gonna three minutes, you may just get five seconds, three seconds, how can you say? How can you make that headline pop? To where they’re rolling in there? Oh, wait, that that’s that disrupted? Me. So alright, um, two more. One is what advice do you have for the company that says, No, I listen. I so believe you. But I believed the previous advertiser, and I gave them $30,000. And I’ve got five leads to show for it, of which none converted? I truly I want to believe pay advertising works. But yes, don’t have the history with it. What would you say to that company that’s been burned? For whatever reason could be their own? Yeah, be the fault of others? How should they reengage with this paid advertising, in the sense of Is any of that data that they collected, is of any use to the unpaid advertiser going forward?

Unknown Speaker 36:48
I always love seeing data, no matter if the data was a failure or not. I’ve always learned something. And I cannot tell you how many clients I got at Springhill. Digital, that came to me because they had been burned by a previous advertising. And so referral said, okay, she’s different, you can trust her full transparency. A lot of people come with a burn, burn, advertising, pay media experience. You know, I love my industry. But there are people out there that you know, follow their own thoughts. And maybe those thoughts don’t work for everybody. So what would I say is like, let’s look at the data. Let’s see what we can learn from all those $30,000 that you pour in, they generated something. So let’s see what we learn. Let’s see where we can take these crumbling pie and make it into something else. Yeah. So we start there. And once they see that there’s something to be learned once that you take the pain out of having spent so much money and have nothing to show for once you show them what they got, which sometimes it’s really good learnings, and that he can be applied to improve the next step, then, and then he’s when you start making headway, like they got something. They’re not they don’t they don’t they have not that will that they put up and there’s like no more paid media ever again, it starts coming down. It’s like, well, maybe we’ll maybe. But also, like, the worst case scenario that I’ve gotten many times is, whenever the previous advertiser actually didn’t give them any data, because the previous advertiser own their account, or, you know, things like these, those are really painful. Those are actually even more difficult, because there’s nothing to show for nothing, right? There is nothing I can take and say, let’s learn from it, because there’s nothing to learn from. So I have to go back and just kind of look for those nuggets of information in conversations that they had before or in their own company, or in their own Google Analytics. Normally they do on their own Google Analytics. So I have to look for the information a little bit harder. But there’s always something to be learned, even if they fail, sometimes you have to fail to learn. So and then we start little by little, we start, we start with pilot programs. We start with tests. We do several variations, and then we start learning again, but at a much lower risk. And what really seals it for people that have been burned before is being completely honest and transparent about why are we doing these things. If they fail, this is what we’re going to learn if they succeed. This is how we’re going to scale it up. And just full transparency.

Chris Davis 39:47
Yeah, yeah. All right. Last one. I imagine when you had the ice cream, the ice cream business, and you were running the advertising for them, there was a different challenge and also A different approach because it was so niche, right? There’s not a whole lot of competition out there. What about markets like myself? Where it’s marketers marketing to marketers? People know the tricks and the tactics? In your experience? Have you seen that you have to get more creative? Or is it just really staying true to dive in deep into the data? And understanding how to communicate to them? Or do I do I need to? I see, I see all kinds of ads. You know, I see people shouting in your, in your timeline, I see them doing work creative, like gifs, you know, all kinds of imagery. What have you seen in these really competitive markets? Is it still clarity over creativity? Are there things that you can do to stand out? Or is it just kind of like, you’re just gonna have to pay more to play in those types of industries.

Unknown Speaker 40:54
It’s not that you have to pay more to play exclusively, I mean, more competition always means higher cost of being there is supply and demand. And it is about talking about the topics that you are an expert at, talking, talking about the topics that you like talking about, and that you can do in a consistent manner. Because the hyper creativity comes and goes, those people that will jump on a very fast trend, and then that trend dies, even though I told you to look at trends. But if you cannot do this consistently, then then you have a one hit wonder and that’s it. So and follow through. That’s where a lot of people in your industry fall is yes, it’s it’s great at the very beginning, and then there’s no follow through, then there is no systems do take you all the way home, there is just a break into communication, or you find different landing pages with different offers. And then you start re stressing this relationship. like wait a minute, today, you told me it was 20% off, but tomorrow, you told me 60% off, and then you go back to 5%. So I say in these industries that are very competitive, where people want to stand out really fast, really quick. It is more about the long journey, the consistent journey, and the expert advice and expert voice. And I just if I had to choose one word, it will be consistency.

Chris Davis 42:27
Yeah. Yeah, I think it was Dr. King is consistency, has its as has its way, or has its place has has its place. And it’s hard to be consistent in in competitive markets. I wholeheartedly agree, just being consistent is a differentiator, because people come and go, because everybody’s trying to jump on the trends everybody’s trying to get in and get out. And if you could just stand the test of time. Right? Yeah, this didn’t look at your your data, keep learning. Keep learning about your

Unknown Speaker 43:03
audience. Yeah, because being consistent doesn’t mean that you’re not an innovator, that has nothing to do with it, which a lot of people think it’s one or the other, you’re consistent in your message, and you’re consistent in your experience. And you can continue innovating, nothing to do with it. So yeah, be be there. For the people that are looking for a solution that it’s like you said, gonna stand the test of time. And because I remember, you know, like four years ago, it was all about the hacks in phase where like, if you turn it on and off your ad in the morning, and then in the afternoon, then when it comes back, then he has, you know, all these super fast hack, just everybody should get away from from those people. Because that one is not going to work for everybody and to their noggin giving you the quality traffic, the quality lead and the quality clicks that you’re looking for. So yeah, I remember that was a trend, quick hacks. And I’ve always disliked that. So advertising the same as you advertising in a very crowded market. Whenever I had a spring digital. That was that was challenging, but we stayed true to who we were and what we believed in, which was Do your homework before you go into a meeting, get your systems in place. And test, always test test test as even if things are going well continue testing. Yeah.

Chris Davis 44:37
Yep. And I will say on on the other side. If you’re somebody looking for a paid advertising expert, and they don’t ask you to do your homework, run the other way. Okay, if the first thing they’re saying is, hey, give me access to all your accounts. We’ll get these ads running in no time. Paul Wait a minute, hold on. Are you going to look at the data? Oh, well, we’ll look at it on the way. We just need to get these ads up and running. It’s like, oh, what? Timeout. Okay, thank you. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. But no, thank you. So there is some self checking on both sides. And I as you were talking, I did remember, it wasn’t consistency. It was longevity that was driving me crazy. Dr. King had this place. But I want Naira, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. And talking about paid advertising, especially on a shoestring budget. If you want to get the most out of your dollars, what I’m hearing is in mind, the data might listen to what people are saying, don’t start from a blank plate. Okay, a blank slate, blank canvas, whatever the case is, get some marketing in place, if you don’t have the money to advertise, you definitely have time to create content that’s engaging. So you can at least figure out how people are responding. And once you figure out where your audience is, that’s going to be the indicator of what channel to use to reach them. Some people, they their audiences 100% on Instagram, it’s not going to do much for them to be on Microsoft search, or even maybe even Google, right? If that’s where it is I it’s just like, whenever I recreate a video on Instagram, I get all of these followers. But for some reason my ads over here aren’t working. And in the common sense, my will be like, Whoa, just pay attention to what’s working. But sometimes we’re are we’re convinced before we should be convinced that yeah, particular thing is the way to go because it worked for someone else. We’re trying to fit the shoe that other people wore. So thank you for sharing that. Congratulations on your opportunity. With the trailblazers, if anybody wants to find out more about you the work that you’re currently doing or have done, just want to get in touch, where should they go?

Unknown Speaker 47:00
They should go to LinkedIn. I am right there. There’s no many Naira in the world, but even less than work at the Portland Trailblazers. So yeah, go to my LinkedIn page. And yeah, just search for Naira Perez and you should find me really easy.

Chris Davis 47:21
Okay, what do you all a favor, listeners will add her LinkedIn link to the show notes. So you just have to click right there and it’ll take you right to LinkedIn, connect with an IRA. Go to the games, go to the games. If you’re if you’re in Portland, you’re probably going to be experiencing some real results of the or work so you can see it live and in action again now. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Naira Perez 47:48
Thank you for inviting me. This was a lot of fun. Yes,

Chris Davis 47:50
yes. Yes. Great. I’ll see you online. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The all systems go podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure that you’re subscribed at the time of recording the all systems go podcast is free to subscribe to, and it can be found in Apple podcast, Google podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts new episodes are released every Thursday. So make sure you’re subscribed so that you don’t miss out and while you’re at it, please leave us a five star rating and review to show some love but also to help future listeners more easily find the podcast so they can experience the value of goodness as well. We’ve compiled all resources mentioned on the podcast, as well as other resources that are extremely valuable and effective at helping you grow your marketing automation skills quickly and you can access them all at allsystemsgopodcast.com Thanks again for listening. And until next time, I see you online. Automate responsibly my friends