Automation and Storytelling feat. Rob Drummond

ASG 065 – Automation and Storytelling feat. Rob Drummond

Chris Davis: [00:00:00] You’re listening to the All Systems Go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot, learn how to deploy automated marketing and sales systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of Automation Bridge, Chris Davis.

Chris Davis: [00:00:30] Welcome to the All Systems Go podcast.

Chris Davis: [00:00:33] I’m your host, Chris Davis, the founder and chief automation officer of Automation Brigades, an online publication for small business marketing automation, where we teach, where we turn digital marketing professionals and automation service providers. In this episode, I have the pleasure of having our own community member, Rob Drummond on the podcast. And Rob is the founder of Storytellers.com, where Rob focuses on leveraging the art of storytelling in your marketing. And what I love about Rob’s background is he’s he’s unique for copywriter because he’s got an extensive background in sales and marketing, more specifically marketing technology. So oftentimes when you can blend those two worlds together in one person, in their acumen, it makes them a lot sharper, a lot more on point, understanding the context in which they’re writing the copy and the end goal that they eventually want the reader to take. So as you listen to this podcast, I want you to pay attention not just to the storytelling and the power of it, but also pay attention to Rob’s story on how he stumbled. I’m using air quotes here onto copywriting. You know, his path was very non-traditional, starting out, you know, in a place where you didn’t necessarily know we would end up and it didn’t match. And that’s a lot of times your journey. Our story is that we can sometimes think that our first thing is the thing and you have to really wrestle, allow yourself to be exposed to things and and really adventure. Venture out and find your way. So before we jump into it, if you’re new to the podcast, make sure you subscribe to the All Systems Go podcast. We are everywhere where you can listen to or download podcast, including Apple podcast, Google podcasts. You can even subscribe on YouTube. So if this is your first time, make sure you listen to this episode in its entirety and then leave a five star rating and review. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please do so to make sure that you never miss a new episode. Every Thursday we release a new episode and you’ll get the notification bill. So let’s get into it with Rob.

Chris Davis: [00:02:55] Rob, welcome to the podcast. I’m glad to have you on. How are you doing?

Rob Drummond: [00:03:01] I’m really great, Chris. And I just want to say at the outset, so like many parents around the world, I am suffering under the relentless chaos of having two small children at home. And so consequently, my podcast Listening Time has been greatly diminished and your society should actually stick with. And I think that’s because every episode I am at least reminded of something I never have forgotten. And I think you actually managed to make the really unsexy parts really appealing. And that’s that’s that’s no small feat. So, yes, it’s great to be here.

Chris Davis: [00:03:34] And I appreciate it, Rob. And, you know, having a home office with children is no small feat to to maintain productivity. But for those podcasters that are listening, you know, the the struggle of getting that quiet time and space to be able to record as well. Well, look, man, I’m I’m excited to have you on. I know about you and I’ve been on your podcast, so it just only seemed right for you to you to come in and be on mine. So before we get to too far into it, explain to the audience about yourself and your business.

Rob Drummond: [00:04:16] Yes, my business is story copywriters. So I train email boxes to write stories that sell. So the flip side of that proposition is if you’re a business owner and you’re listening to this, is that we help we can help you figure out which parts of your story to tell what places in your marketing, but ultimately tell you with a copyright so you can actually tell a story. If I think you’ll think I’m because ultimately, you know, copyright songs may be a work out, eventually you kind of transcend, not you. It becomes more valuable to in your business. So I could have trained writers to provide the service. Not so nice. And it’s OK if I sort of spend a few minutes telling you how that came about. Yeah, I’m interested. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:05:02] The back story is all import is always important for entrepreneurs who are looking to perhaps follow in those footsteps, you know, or just give more insight on you.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:12] So my I’ve always worked in it’s not a coincidence that I’ve sort of wound up in your community. I mean, I’ve always worked in and around CRM systems. I just I’m a sucker for punishment salesmen because, like, I keep getting jobs. Like, my my very first job was as an 18 year old with.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:30] As a marketing concern for a manufacturing company, and I may be on my first day, my boss Marjorie said to me, look, we’ve got this concept management system is called goldmine sales team don’t really like it, but it’s what we use to manage manage leads.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:46] And even then, 18 a little bit. I got my hat on. I was like dignity. It’s like if the sales team don’t like.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:54] Why why are we using it? Do they not like do they don’t like the interface system?

Rob Drummond: [00:06:00] Is the information not useful for them?

Rob Drummond: [00:06:02] So either in the back of my mind, what am I jobs in that role was entering data into the system. So we had a big block of contacts, primary care trusts in the UK, which was one of our customs officers. And one of my jobs was to copy data from the book into the CRM system. And consequently, as a result of doing Not mind-Numbing task, I knew more about Golman than anyone else at the company. I ended up training to sell stuff on how to use Goldmine on a Day-To-Day basis. So that was my source of news into CRM after I got another marketing. It’s a job for a company called Prospect Soft who were kind of a competitor goldmine, but smaller.

Rob Drummond: [00:06:44] They had a niche, a niche offer where they they integrated a certain UK based accounting systems. So if you use one of these accounting system, you needed to get data out of the house for a product file in your accounts into the CRM system. So it’s visible to the customer facing stuff. That was kind of what they did. And I could have got that gold because gold mine experience and this was kind of it wasn’t quite before email marketing, but it was we did a lot of direct mail. Ah, we used to send mailers out and we would meticulously code each one with the promo codes so that when the leads came in, we’d be able to figure out whether they actually come from. So yeah, we were definitely tracking basically the wave with direct mail and we started doing email marketing and we used to use I’m horrified at what we did. We used to use a tool called Will Merge. We would take a big export with export, you know, all of the prospects, 30000 prospects out of the database into a CSP file with upload this file. It’s a way to merge and will merge, would send emails to these contacts through your own Internet service provider with no real opt out mechanism.

Rob Drummond: [00:07:52] Like, you know, we wore suits to work, but we might as well have more pirate hats, I think. And then one day the sales director came into the office and explained that they were about to close at 80000 pound deals, about a hundred thousand dollars. So it is a big prospect. Are you seeing the prospect? Isn’t getting my emails, what’s going on? And it turns out that the automated just been blacklisted because of all activity and marketing. And to this day, I have no idea what the ITC gets to get the domain or blacklisted.

Rob Drummond: [00:08:24] But it was not a informed of my life when I figured it out. Oh, wow.

Rob Drummond: [00:08:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after that we ended up integrating into an actual email, you know, service provider. So Ritsuko Communicator, UK, it might still exist. I’m not sure, but we we basically white label communicator and we integrated it to the CRM system so that our customers bought what was Prospect Software Marketing, which is actually communicator. And I used to go out to the client sites and I would train them. I would attempt to trade it one day. How to use communicator is like treating someone how to use active competitive values. Absolutely crazy. And then I would set up in the morning and then I would hope I’m not normally religious, but I would pray I would pray that this person was EITE competence, that they knew the password that they worked with.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:15] They were doing this. Try to give the mouse up and down. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:21] So, so yeah, it was great experience. I realised I was going to pay for it. I actually have one clients who basically locked me in a room and it’s all of their grievances with the CRM system.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:34] And I was like, oh man, I’m just here to do the marketing training. I’m really sorry for your loss, but yeah, I’m so that I eventually left prospects off.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:47] I followed people like Pabey Marshall and I decided to go it alone. I figured that, you know, how hard could it be? So I set up a big business as a Google ads consultants and kind of by accident, I went to business networking meetings and that was what people told me they were struggling with, with Google ads. So not much has changed in some respects. And I thought I’d built up a small AdWords agency, and one of the things I did to get clients was I created a lead magnet called How to Waste a Thousand Pounds on Google AdWords in no time flat. And actually, I think I think to this day, the reason the syntax of that title, I think is still quite good. It’s how to waste a certain amount of money on your topic in a time frame, you know, just jumping ahead a bit. I actually created when I started selling Infusionsoft later on, I created I created a live market called Confusion Softs five easy ways to let Infusionsoft burn a hole in your credit card.

Chris Davis: [00:10:47] A different angle company and eventually add a tap on the shoulder from the Infusionsoft, pulling so politely but firmly USPI. It’s a very good idea. I was I was getting this feedback that housebreak thousand pounds and Google AdWords sample.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:05] And what happened after that was people without it did so in a weather event, marketing sequence. And there were about 15 emails in that sequence.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:13] And the email sequence I just hostelries I introduced me. It wasn’t particularly well thought out, but I just Hostelries and I noticed that there were two types of clients I would get. One type of client was people who just from a website, they wanted to organize a call, find out how much I cost, funded what my hourly rate was. I actually had calls to people who just wouldn’t accept I didn’t have an hourly rate. I just I just. And then another type of clients who saw the email list, I went through the email service and eventually at some point they were like, yep, you know what? I’m going to I trust this guy. I’m going to organize a call. There are far more respectful actually use. And I think I use time trade as my schedule.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:56] I’ve always used scheduling, so, you know, use to time trade back in there. It was back then, Rob. It was only time trading schedule once were like this schedulers, you know. Yeah.

Rob Drummond: [00:12:07] Yeah. So I use time trade and they actually use the time trade. And they actually showed up on time and they were respectful of it and they didn’t haggle so much. I was like, oh, this is like night and day. It’s like, well the difference was the emails and the stories and the trust have been built. So it makes emails. So things were going quite well. I know one day I watched a presentation by Jamaine Griggs who talk through how he organized his hair and play systems and how he builds recency frequency and what he thinks his database. And I watched his presentations and my jaw hit the floor and I was like, you know what? That’s infinitely better than what I’m doing today. And then I made an emotional decision on that day to ditch my current systems and stand up for Infusionsoft. And I wish I’d known you at that point, Chris, because I really needed someone to, like, tap on the shoulder, say, calm down for the needs of your business and your strategy, your system. I was used so I was using Alibaba and I was using A.W. Pro Tools, which was another form. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just moving people from one place to another, you know, when they after that, after the time trades, they would move to another list. So yeah it was fine. Is nothing wrong with it. So but yeah. So I decided to jump into it this often because I’m impulsive, I tend to do a bit of things at Berkeley. So I not only bought Infusionsoft, I also signed up for the Egyptians support the training without any real concept of what I was going to do it.

Rob Drummond: [00:13:40] If I could go out there. Either way, that’s a lot. And it did the part, the training and I signed up as a partner.

Rob Drummond: [00:13:45] And so I ended up with a business that was not only selling Google, I was selling Google out. I was selling Infusionsoft, I was implementing Infusionsoft services. I was doing too many things. One of my first Infusionsoft clients was a company that trained mountain guides and they were using Infusionsoft Fermat automation since they weren’t doing anything that clever. It was just a sequence. And there were about fifty emails in this sequence and they just tell stories and they tell stories about the experience of being on the mountain and how the founders Queensway and this this was a very expensive program. This was, you know, invest 100000 dollars, go to Patagonia for three years and learn how to become, you know, a really great mountain. Got ill when you could escape the office. That’s that sort of thing. And it was working and they weren’t doing anything fancy. But I realized it was the stories that they were telling in between. So I kind of helped them expand on their story. So I would I would interview the business editor, the interview, and did different things that he told that told me anecdotally. And I was like, oh, yeah, we’ve got to trade imbalance. This one that Ratatat into the sequence and freed of his time to kind of do a lot of stuff because he was busy.

Rob Drummond: [00:14:56] So, yeah. So I just noticed as well it’s there is the story there again. But at that point I still thought that storytelling was like a dark horse that you had. You didn’t you couldn’t systematically, you know. So decode it. I follow a bicycle, Señor Sousa, he runs psycho tactics and he was running a storytelling course in Amsterdam, so I thought, well, I’ll go. So I went to this course in Amsterdam and I think there were about 15 people at his course with all most of us relatives and some white, some copywriters, some authors. And it became very clear to me that Shawn had a practice he was able to teach. And we all went through this. It was a three day course impact. My thinking about this really will make the same mistakes. We all stumbled in the same places and we all emerged with the same skill. And I was like, well, that’s great, because I can now decode anyone that actually connects storytelling. And I realized that actually we’re all real storytellers. Everyone in that room was a storyteller because we’re all human.

Rob Drummond: [00:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. And so I got home. I can buy insurance out some of my own ideas. And that was my first work group, which was the prototype of my current offer. So I went through that with like three students. I just got a few people on the list to sign up for it. And they went through the steps. And then about halfway through the course I said, OK, write me a demo.

Rob Drummond: [00:16:24] And they all they all felt I basically saw somebody kind of blow across my screen. So, you know, we we kind of made some changes to the process. And that was that was four years ago. So since then, I’ve been kind of putting people through the course of refining the process, working with business owners as well to help them tell their story. So it’s a process for that, extracting this story, getting into a usable form. One development that we’ve had in the last year, actually, from listening to your podcast has been using our table to kind of organize documents and tag stories that you might want to tell so that you’ve got this you’ve got this er table of stories. So actually for every copywriter you hire in the future, you don’t have to brief them. You have to spend hours briefing them all over again to let them be story you. Just some of the, you know, it’s already there.

Rob Drummond: [00:17:12] So that’s the direction we’re going in. So it’s been a long road.

Chris Davis: [00:17:15] But yeah, this is really good, Rob. And I’m glad that you shared it, because often time, especially when people are getting started to mistakes they make one is you look.

Chris Davis: [00:17:30] And you’re beginning you look at somebody else’s finish and you compare the two and it’s like, hey, look, this person is making ten, ten thousand dollars a week and you’re just getting started out and you compare their finish to your start. Right? So it skews it. We all do it. I did it. But the second piece is you have to be willing.

Chris Davis: [00:17:54] You know, when I listen to your story, Rob, you were willing to do beyond what was required. Right. And explore other areas. It’s one of the things that served me well when I was at startups, you know? Yeah, I’m in marketing and I’m leading these departments. But I always ventured over into the graphic designers and the engineers and the finance folks just to see because you never know. One exposure to an area of life in business can change your path forever for the better, you know. So for you to be able to say, hey, look, well, how can I improve the sales people’s life, I’ll just do this. And then from that, you’re now training these people on the job, which is building a muscle towards technology. So when you start to continue to navigate through your career and you end up as storytelling, as a copywriter, you’re this really unique person because you’ve got this technical background because you were willing to just figure it out. And I think not enough people commit to the process of figuring it out. They want the one trick pony that works now. And if it doesn’t work now, they’re like, OK, I’m done because this is what I was supposed to do. Instead of letting that experience inform them, you know, to get closer to what they could they could become or do.

Rob Drummond: [00:19:15] I think it’s about having an all around holistic approach and then a specific thing that you do, unless you’ve got the of these qualities, different holes and spoken to the different departments, you have the holistic approach. A not holistic approach is what makes you a problem solver because you see the bigger picture as well.

Chris Davis: [00:19:34] Yeah, absolutely. And it takes the open mind. So one of the reasons why I wanted you on the podcast was because I feel like. Copywriters are not valued enough, early enough in business, and for automation to work, your messaging has to work. OK, you know, I talk about data, you know, there’s no automation without information and marketing being the bloodline of your business and your marketing should be automatically fed through your system. Right. So I’ve got all these sayings around automation, but one area that that I haven’t highlighted enough is messaging. And and here’s my experience with messaging. When I started at Lead Pages, I could care less about copy. In fact, Rob, I didn’t even know copy was called copy. People kept saying copy. Like what? Copy what? What. Like, literally like what am I supposed to be copying into until you learn it? And Clay, the CEO of Lead pages at the time, Clay was obsessed with great copywriters. Not good, not not better than average, but great copy writers. And the one specific her name is Kat Kat Von Maur. She was the primary copywriter when I started. And Rob, if I if I could explain the length of Scruton t every email, every landing page, every form of copy that touched the public eye, it had to be perfect. Right. And as an Automator, I’m just like, look, just give me the email. I’m ready. When you are just saying get over, you know, I’m ready to build man.

Chris Davis: [00:21:20] But there’s all these checks and balances in and I never quite understood it till later when I matured in my marketing at Lead pages. But from landing pages to everything, he just gave a certain level of detail and he would say it all the time. If you want a successful business, get copywriters, get somebody to write the copy and you will be amazed at how much easier success is to be found. And it’s to be true. If I talk about segmentation, what good is segmentation and you being able to send a targeted message to anybody in your database at the right time if that message isn’t effective? And I think it’s a big black hole. Let me not say black hole, I think it’s a big oversight for marketers who can buy free, can buy software inexpensively, can get free tools. Right. And can get results without some level of investment. But when it comes to their messaging, they’re just like, oh, I’ll write my own e-mails or I can do that. Or, you know, they’ll try to copy and paste some other gurus emails. So copywriting is extremely important. When did you realize that, you know what, this funnel stuff people are talking about, it doesn’t work without copy.

Chris Davis: [00:22:36] What was that aha for you?

Rob Drummond: [00:22:38] Well, I’m a writer, so I’ve always had thought because as a writer, I’m I love the satellite and beautiful voice in prose. So I’ve always had the opinion that the writing is what kind of what sells. I have two comments and what you just said.

Rob Drummond: [00:22:54] What is it? There are lots of people looking for magic solutions and buying and buying things.

Rob Drummond: [00:23:01] I don’t know if we want to pick on particular markets, but buying people like Frank earns cash machine. I have a number of clients who have bought that system, and it’s a perfectly good system in terms of the structure that it provides.

Rob Drummond: [00:23:12] But it comes preloaded with emails. And what I’ve seen for the clients I work with, especially UK based clients, is that those emails do not work for UK based Moylan’s because it isn’t your voice. So am I. You know what? You could switch your content. You could keep the structure. The structure is good in terms of the progression that it pushes people to, but it’s got to be your it’s got to be your voice. Give a thing that people do is like if you if you if you let’s say you just segmented your database and you and you ready to go and send people an email. And it’s like the emails almost they almost got written as an afterthought. And it’s like you open up the email that it’s having Infusionsoft active campaign and it’s the blank screen and it’s it’s too late. It’s like at that point you’ve already lost, you know, it’s like so I’ve spent a number of years as a Bugalugs consultant, so much like a mistake. People making Google ads is writing ads in the words interface. It’s like you have to assemble, you have to assemble the raw materials before your opinions of its interface. And it’s not going to work. So. So, yes. So I guess to answer your initial question, it’s like I guess I’ve always kind of that I’ve I’ve always believed that the copyright is kind of first I kind of view marketing as as a communications solution. It’s a solution to the problem of distance, because if you are like an artisan and we’re all trading locally and you didn’t travel anywhere, you kind of you wouldn’t need marketing because you would just spit you just face to face was seen as like the railway and the telegram came along. You could suddenly sell to people who say, a train ride away in Liverpool instead of Manchester or wherever it is. So suddenly you couldn’t be face to face. So you are running you to become the products.

Rob Drummond: [00:24:55] So now we’re all on zoom calls are in different parts of the world. And, you know, everyone’s everyone’s got like a personal profile. And it’s like what? People have to also trust you. So the need for marketing is now probably more greater than ever was, especially in this year, where suddenly more people are now, you know, doing stuff online. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:25:17] Well, that’s that’s 100 percent accurate, and when I think about it, Rob, you know, the connection between writing copy or messaging, messaging and your marketing, one of the things comes to light that you you focus on, and that is storytelling. I think that. Storytelling is so is so fundamental that people just look over it and a lot of people are looking for tricks and trick and tactics and in catchy headlines that they don’t understand the true power of story. But I was always told, even from birth, the first thing that a child remembers is through stories. So from Dr. Seuss books are, you know, would you are reading these these books that your your parents were reading where naturally we naturally gravitate to stories. That’s why movies are big. That’s why, you know, a good book is irreplaceable in anybody’s life. Yet when you turn on the marketing, the story takes a back seat. And we try to persuade you know, we try to convince. We try to monetize when speak speak for a moment. On the power of storytelling and some of the results that you’ve seen when people implement it within their marketing.

Chris Davis: [00:26:47] I think it’s the difference between rational, false, unemotional thoughts and this is assumption that, you know, prospects opt in and you send them your best information and they will consume that information and they will decide to buy. And that’s true. That’s only true for a subset of people who have who are already very close to buying for people who are a little bit further away. This an emotional decision that has to happen first and for some products more than others, I think for like, you know, coaching services, for instance, that is quite it’s ultimately always an emotional purchase and not the emotion has to precede the rationality and we justify it lets you go. And so you still you still need to know the story doesn’t replace the concepts, but it has to kind of come before the contents for someone to emotionally decide, yes, I trust this guy to trust this person. Yeah. And I, I, I buy into what they’re doing. So so yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s kind of how that I also kind of think that storytelling is the oldest way that knowledge gets passed along from generation to generation. And this, this predates I think this even predates your written language. You know, when the first so I’ve got a section in my book about when the first humans arrived in Europe. They’re already a species of human called Neanderthals who were already here. And effectively Neanderthals were better suited, sort of cold environments. They were better known as, you know, they in theory had better resources, but human. But but Homo sapiens survived. Neanderthals didn’t. I thought, why? Why is that? Obviously, we don’t know. And it’s pure speculation. But there have been there is a lion man carving that was found preserved in a park in Slovakia.

Rob Drummond: [00:28:37] And they’ve carbon dated this and it dates from about thirty thousand B.C. And they also found another Linman in another bog and I think in Germany, somewhere about 30 kilometers away. So these two identical limón, 30 kilometers away. And, well, that shed’s it’s it’s it’s qaid symbols, shared understanding and probably a shared culture shared to us. And I said, well, this isn’t just I think I think storytelling was once a core survival technique. It’s how we pass knowledge from one generation onto another, which is why you know, what a story comes along. We pay attention to it. It’s what gets your attention. It’s it’s it’s like, well, so why the stories? And I think I think that’s why it’s the way that we would have words and do Ludd is that, you know, sort of Western highly rationalized perspective on the world. We’ve kind of lost track of it. So I think that’s why it tends to get sidelined. And I think in terms of results, I think if you come to mind, I think probably the amount of training school I mentioned, what they were sort of taking completely cultural aspects and saying, hey, are you bored of the office still climbing and change your life? Well, we’ll take you to Patagonia. And you know that they built a really successful business. They were doing cold banner ads on Google Display Network, adding people to Infusionsoft who didn’t know what they were generating. Now, they obviously had an offline sales process where people would apply because you wanted to make sure people were vote for the program. But, you know, it was a significant, you know, hundred thousand dollar investments. So, yeah, I mean, you know, this stuff works.

Chris Davis: [00:30:16] Yeah. Yeah. And I know we talk, you know, about this stuff and it’s really about that that like, no interest factor. Right. What have you seen about storytelling that just really disarms people? Because I feel like here’s what I feel like, Rob. When you can tell somebody trying to get you to like them, trust them or no know them, it has the opposite effect on a lot of people. Some people are just blind. They don’t know. They’re just like, oh, I just like them, you know? But for most people, even if they’re not aware of it, there’s like this in unconscious bias to not trust. Right. When I know you’re trying to make me trust you, you come off as inauthentic, right? When I know you’re trying to make me like you. I don’t want to like you, you know. So it it appears, you know, on the surface to me that storytelling does some disarming of some magnitude. Is that what you’ve seen in terms of how it is perceived on the on the receiving end?

Rob Drummond: [00:31:17] Yeah, because you can’t trust anyone who’s flawless and perfect, because we all we all know that we’re not flawless and perfect. So so it’s the vulnerability behind an authentically tell story. So I see a lot of stories in marketing being used as a bit of a gimmick. It’s like an attention grabber. You see these Facebook ads. It’s some guy standing in front of a helicopter he’s just hired. And it’s a it’s a switching story. It’s like, oh, I was so poor. I was I was on my last. You know, three boys eating beans outside its head, and then I discovered this secret and just your email address, I will share my simple secret with you.

Rob Drummond: [00:31:56] I mean, I don’t trust you.

Rob Drummond: [00:32:01] It’s not it’s not authentic. And I think I think this this ties into a point where I think you have to consider the placements of these stories as well, because you can only tell you can only tell your personal story to someone once they have your attention, which means things like podcasts are a good way of doing it. Email is a good way of doing it because email. Email is a warm medium. You know, people opt in and they confirmed their email address. They already opt in for something else. And then you tell them your story. Yeah, it doesn’t it doesn’t really work on Facebook unless you’re doing Facebook retargeting and it can work. Sure. Sure. But, you know, it’s like if you just walk down like a busy high street and you start to drop in people and you start telling them your personal story, people are going to think you are absolutely nuts. Whereas if you if you just met someone and you met them in the High Street, you’ve agreed to go to a coffee shop for a drink with them. They’ve consensus. They’ve agreed to go to that coffee shop with you. And they want to they’re interested in what you have to offer then. Yeah. Then that’s the time that you tell the story in the literal sense. So you don’t necessarily just bamboozle people with this. You know, I think on a recent podcast episode, you were talking about growth levers. And I think for the right businesses, this is this is a growth lever. It’s not one that you pulled repeatedly every time.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:19] It doesn’t doesn’t have the same effect here. Once you once you told it, you know, people kind of get a bit bored of it. It’s like, yeah, I just tells the story, Chris. You’re right. You’re right.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:31] So, yeah, if anyone selling anyone selling based on trust, I think anyone who has their photo prominently on their website so they could have you and your blue suit on the website. So yeah. Yeah. I don’t like that. It’s like here’s the guy behind the suits.

Chris Davis: [00:33:46] That’s why I want to do something as good. Right. The person behind the presentation.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:52] Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that often in the email series that I’ve helped people create, it’s, it’s, there’s always a voice of the email series and normally it’s the founder. Obviously if it’s a one person business and it’s the factor, you know, that person is the voice of the emails. Yeah. Yeah. They’re much more complex. If it’s a if it’s a group of founders, if it’s slightly bigger company who deposed the voice of the business. So I’ll be doing a bit of work recently with a software company. And the stories that we’ve been telling is so what primeur mostly telling me about this story. But we’re also including some stories from the other founders to kind of bring them out of the shadows and showcase with their background, their expertise, some of what else is going on in the background of who else is behind this products, because ultimately it comes back to, you know, like and trust again. It’s like you can only investors make when more. You know what if you invest in some software, especially if it’s relatively new software like this, you’re more likely to be more forgiving of some of the bugs and some of the issues. If you understand the story, you just give people a bit more time. So, yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:34:56] Yeah, absolutely. No, this is great. And again, it’s a great reminder for those who are a bit more savvy in marketing and it’s a great introduction to the importance of copywriting and not just copywriting, but storytelling in in your copywriting. As we close out here. Rob, what what are you up to and where can people connect with you?

Rob Drummond: [00:35:21] Yes. So I’ve got a course available for a few years called Nurturing My Mastery, which teaches email marketers how to write stories of self. And so what I’m doing this year is I’m changing things around. So we’re going to do a live cohort so the course isn’t currently available. It’s going to be we’re going to be doing a live cohort where we take on a group of students. So effectively you go through the current course, we’d have more access to me in the life training. And we’re also going to pair people up into accountability partners because it’s the accountability to actually actually keep people writing and especially with you also running a business. Yeah, yeah. I, I’ve sort of seen that this is a valuable skill for business owners. There’s a lot of business owners who are taking out the trash and trying to outsource. Like it’s like it should be outsourcing the trash and writing your own copy until your business hits a particular level when there’s a lever somewhat higher up that you can pull. So, yes, so we’re going in the spring. I’m just finalizing dates on that. But yeah, if you’re okay with me leaving a link, it’s yeah, absolutely. And we’ll include it in the show notes. We’ll, we’ll include the resource in the show. Yeah. It’s a storycopywriting.com and if people follow the links on that page this is more information.

Chris Davis: [00:36:40] Great. Great. Well Rob again, thank you for coming on to the podcast and helping. Collectively really shine a light on on storytelling and copywriting that that is should again, everybody who’s listening is hard, is hard to find a good copywriter. It really is. So when you find one that not, you know, Rob, again, you’ve got some technical chops, too, so you can write from the perspective of their voice and also understanding how it’s going to be sent out. OK, well, if it’s two days between this one, you’ll want to do this or, you know, like that. That’s rare, man.

Rob Drummond: [00:37:23] You can never disentangle questions of implementation. So the copy always will always ask you about. And then when I train copywriters or business owners to tell a story, the next question, the next question is what email system should I use? You know, invariably so. So you can’t you can’t completely pull it apart. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:37:40] You know, we’re we’re eternally intermingled. They will not be compartmentalized. And really, they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t. So anyways, thanks again, Rob, for for coming on to the podcast.

Chris Davis: [00:37:54] Man is greatly appreciated. Yeah, it’s great. Really enjoyed it. Thanks.

Chris Davis: [00:37:58] Thank you for listening to this episode of the All Systems Go podcast. Did you enjoy hearing Rob’s story as well as the power of storytelling? I’m going to tell you this, Rob is not going to be the last copywriter and the last professional that we have on this podcast about storytelling. I think that it is so instrumental to master this art, not just not just in your email, everybody, but on your website and any type of messaging that touches your customer, your prospect, your your audience. You really need to master master the art of art, of harnessing storytelling, because it’s just so innate. It’s just so natural from children. We talked about in the podcast, we’re just drawn to stories. So expect to hear about more of this from more professionals going forward. Furthermore, who needed to hear this? Who has unclear messaging? When you go to their Web site, you just can’t figure out what they do. On the flip side, who has really strong messaging? When you go to their website, it just communicates so clear, like, wow, they they really they really do a good job with drawing me in and explaining clearly exactly what they do and how it benefits. Share this with both of them. Share this with both.

Chris Davis: [00:39:23] For the for the latter, this will be affirming. It will give them confidence in knowing, OK, we made the right decision going this way with with how we display our story on on our website, but more so for those who are struggling a bit, finding your voice, finding your story and how to tell it in a compelling way. Make sure that you share today’s podcast with them. All right. Now, here at Automation Bridge, we’re dedicated, I would say it’s my life’s work. It’s my life’s work to to train digital marketing professionals, to navigate more and more accurately in the the small business and enterprise space. And providing the service of automation is a skill that is becoming more and more high demand. So small businesses, these small businesses and enterprises are in dire need, dire need of marketers that have that ability. And if that’s you, if you’re listening to the podcast and you’re like, man, I that’s what I want to do. I want to build these systems. I want to I want to connect with the copywriter and take their copy and put it in a system to display it to the masses in an automated fashion. Well well, that’s a telltale sign that you may have what it takes to become an automation service provider.

Chris Davis: [00:40:39] So if if you want to talk to somebody on my team and really start to fill out, if this if our program would be a good fit for you, if you’re looking to start a career or have a agency or you just want to be a professional at marketing automation, there’s really one place to go and you’re already here. So if you want to take the next step and again talk to somebody from my team or myself to see if our program will be a good fit to get you on the path to becoming an automation service provider and potentially certification. I want you to go to automationbridge.com/asp. That’s automationbridge.com/asp. Listen, the time is now. The time is now. I’m looking for people who know what they want to do. They know where they want to go and they’re ready to go. They’re ready to go. There’s no convincing on my part. There’s no selling. There’s no tactics and persuasion. This is simply, you know what you want. And I know I have the vehicle to get you there. So I’m looking forward to connecting with any of you who say, hey, look, my hand is raised.

Chris Davis: [00:41:54] Chris, just show me the way I just showed you the way automationbridge.com/asp . All of the show notes and any resources mentioned in this podcast are all available at Automationbridge.com/podcast. You can subscribe there and listen to all the other episodes at your leisure. So until next time I see you on line automate responsibly friends.

ASG 065 – Automation and Storytelling feat. Rob Drummond

Chris Davis: [00:00:00] You’re listening to the All Systems Go podcast, the show that teaches you everything you need to know to put your business on autopilot, learn how to deploy automated marketing and sales systems in your business the right way with your host, the professor of automation himself and founder of Automation Bridge, Chris Davis.

Chris Davis: [00:00:30] Welcome to the All Systems Go podcast.

Chris Davis: [00:00:33] I’m your host, Chris Davis, the founder and chief automation officer of Automation Brigades, an online publication for small business marketing automation, where we teach, where we turn digital marketing professionals and automation service providers. In this episode, I have the pleasure of having our own community member, Rob Drummond on the podcast. And Rob is the founder of Storytellers.com, where Rob focuses on leveraging the art of storytelling in your marketing. And what I love about Rob’s background is he’s he’s unique for copywriter because he’s got an extensive background in sales and marketing, more specifically marketing technology. So oftentimes when you can blend those two worlds together in one person, in their acumen, it makes them a lot sharper, a lot more on point, understanding the context in which they’re writing the copy and the end goal that they eventually want the reader to take. So as you listen to this podcast, I want you to pay attention not just to the storytelling and the power of it, but also pay attention to Rob’s story on how he stumbled. I’m using air quotes here onto copywriting. You know, his path was very non-traditional, starting out, you know, in a place where you didn’t necessarily know we would end up and it didn’t match. And that’s a lot of times your journey. Our story is that we can sometimes think that our first thing is the thing and you have to really wrestle, allow yourself to be exposed to things and and really adventure. Venture out and find your way. So before we jump into it, if you’re new to the podcast, make sure you subscribe to the All Systems Go podcast. We are everywhere where you can listen to or download podcast, including Apple podcast, Google podcasts. You can even subscribe on YouTube. So if this is your first time, make sure you listen to this episode in its entirety and then leave a five star rating and review. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please do so to make sure that you never miss a new episode. Every Thursday we release a new episode and you’ll get the notification bill. So let’s get into it with Rob.

Chris Davis: [00:02:55] Rob, welcome to the podcast. I’m glad to have you on. How are you doing?

Rob Drummond: [00:03:01] I’m really great, Chris. And I just want to say at the outset, so like many parents around the world, I am suffering under the relentless chaos of having two small children at home. And so consequently, my podcast Listening Time has been greatly diminished and your society should actually stick with. And I think that’s because every episode I am at least reminded of something I never have forgotten. And I think you actually managed to make the really unsexy parts really appealing. And that’s that’s that’s no small feat. So, yes, it’s great to be here.

Chris Davis: [00:03:34] And I appreciate it, Rob. And, you know, having a home office with children is no small feat to to maintain productivity. But for those podcasters that are listening, you know, the the struggle of getting that quiet time and space to be able to record as well. Well, look, man, I’m I’m excited to have you on. I know about you and I’ve been on your podcast, so it just only seemed right for you to you to come in and be on mine. So before we get to too far into it, explain to the audience about yourself and your business.

Rob Drummond: [00:04:16] Yes, my business is story copywriters. So I train email boxes to write stories that sell. So the flip side of that proposition is if you’re a business owner and you’re listening to this, is that we help we can help you figure out which parts of your story to tell what places in your marketing, but ultimately tell you with a copyright so you can actually tell a story. If I think you’ll think I’m because ultimately, you know, copyright songs may be a work out, eventually you kind of transcend, not you. It becomes more valuable to in your business. So I could have trained writers to provide the service. Not so nice. And it’s OK if I sort of spend a few minutes telling you how that came about. Yeah, I’m interested. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:05:02] The back story is all import is always important for entrepreneurs who are looking to perhaps follow in those footsteps, you know, or just give more insight on you.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:12] So my I’ve always worked in it’s not a coincidence that I’ve sort of wound up in your community. I mean, I’ve always worked in and around CRM systems. I just I’m a sucker for punishment salesmen because, like, I keep getting jobs. Like, my my very first job was as an 18 year old with.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:30] As a marketing concern for a manufacturing company, and I may be on my first day, my boss Marjorie said to me, look, we’ve got this concept management system is called goldmine sales team don’t really like it, but it’s what we use to manage manage leads.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:46] And even then, 18 a little bit. I got my hat on. I was like dignity. It’s like if the sales team don’t like.

Rob Drummond: [00:05:54] Why why are we using it? Do they not like do they don’t like the interface system?

Rob Drummond: [00:06:00] Is the information not useful for them?

Rob Drummond: [00:06:02] So either in the back of my mind, what am I jobs in that role was entering data into the system. So we had a big block of contacts, primary care trusts in the UK, which was one of our customs officers. And one of my jobs was to copy data from the book into the CRM system. And consequently, as a result of doing Not mind-Numbing task, I knew more about Golman than anyone else at the company. I ended up training to sell stuff on how to use Goldmine on a Day-To-Day basis. So that was my source of news into CRM after I got another marketing. It’s a job for a company called Prospect Soft who were kind of a competitor goldmine, but smaller.

Rob Drummond: [00:06:44] They had a niche, a niche offer where they they integrated a certain UK based accounting systems. So if you use one of these accounting system, you needed to get data out of the house for a product file in your accounts into the CRM system. So it’s visible to the customer facing stuff. That was kind of what they did. And I could have got that gold because gold mine experience and this was kind of it wasn’t quite before email marketing, but it was we did a lot of direct mail. Ah, we used to send mailers out and we would meticulously code each one with the promo codes so that when the leads came in, we’d be able to figure out whether they actually come from. So yeah, we were definitely tracking basically the wave with direct mail and we started doing email marketing and we used to use I’m horrified at what we did. We used to use a tool called Will Merge. We would take a big export with export, you know, all of the prospects, 30000 prospects out of the database into a CSP file with upload this file. It’s a way to merge and will merge, would send emails to these contacts through your own Internet service provider with no real opt out mechanism.

Rob Drummond: [00:07:52] Like, you know, we wore suits to work, but we might as well have more pirate hats, I think. And then one day the sales director came into the office and explained that they were about to close at 80000 pound deals, about a hundred thousand dollars. So it is a big prospect. Are you seeing the prospect? Isn’t getting my emails, what’s going on? And it turns out that the automated just been blacklisted because of all activity and marketing. And to this day, I have no idea what the ITC gets to get the domain or blacklisted.

Rob Drummond: [00:08:24] But it was not a informed of my life when I figured it out. Oh, wow.

Rob Drummond: [00:08:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after that we ended up integrating into an actual email, you know, service provider. So Ritsuko Communicator, UK, it might still exist. I’m not sure, but we we basically white label communicator and we integrated it to the CRM system so that our customers bought what was Prospect Software Marketing, which is actually communicator. And I used to go out to the client sites and I would train them. I would attempt to trade it one day. How to use communicator is like treating someone how to use active competitive values. Absolutely crazy. And then I would set up in the morning and then I would hope I’m not normally religious, but I would pray I would pray that this person was EITE competence, that they knew the password that they worked with.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:15] They were doing this. Try to give the mouse up and down. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:21] So, so yeah, it was great experience. I realised I was going to pay for it. I actually have one clients who basically locked me in a room and it’s all of their grievances with the CRM system.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:34] And I was like, oh man, I’m just here to do the marketing training. I’m really sorry for your loss, but yeah, I’m so that I eventually left prospects off.

Rob Drummond: [00:09:47] I followed people like Pabey Marshall and I decided to go it alone. I figured that, you know, how hard could it be? So I set up a big business as a Google ads consultants and kind of by accident, I went to business networking meetings and that was what people told me they were struggling with, with Google ads. So not much has changed in some respects. And I thought I’d built up a small AdWords agency, and one of the things I did to get clients was I created a lead magnet called How to Waste a Thousand Pounds on Google AdWords in no time flat. And actually, I think I think to this day, the reason the syntax of that title, I think is still quite good. It’s how to waste a certain amount of money on your topic in a time frame, you know, just jumping ahead a bit. I actually created when I started selling Infusionsoft later on, I created I created a live market called Confusion Softs five easy ways to let Infusionsoft burn a hole in your credit card.

Chris Davis: [00:10:47] A different angle company and eventually add a tap on the shoulder from the Infusionsoft, pulling so politely but firmly USPI. It’s a very good idea. I was I was getting this feedback that housebreak thousand pounds and Google AdWords sample.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:05] And what happened after that was people without it did so in a weather event, marketing sequence. And there were about 15 emails in that sequence.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:13] And the email sequence I just hostelries I introduced me. It wasn’t particularly well thought out, but I just Hostelries and I noticed that there were two types of clients I would get. One type of client was people who just from a website, they wanted to organize a call, find out how much I cost, funded what my hourly rate was. I actually had calls to people who just wouldn’t accept I didn’t have an hourly rate. I just I just. And then another type of clients who saw the email list, I went through the email service and eventually at some point they were like, yep, you know what? I’m going to I trust this guy. I’m going to organize a call. There are far more respectful actually use. And I think I use time trade as my schedule.

Rob Drummond: [00:11:56] I’ve always used scheduling, so, you know, use to time trade back in there. It was back then, Rob. It was only time trading schedule once were like this schedulers, you know. Yeah.

Rob Drummond: [00:12:07] Yeah. So I use time trade and they actually use the time trade. And they actually showed up on time and they were respectful of it and they didn’t haggle so much. I was like, oh, this is like night and day. It’s like, well the difference was the emails and the stories and the trust have been built. So it makes emails. So things were going quite well. I know one day I watched a presentation by Jamaine Griggs who talk through how he organized his hair and play systems and how he builds recency frequency and what he thinks his database. And I watched his presentations and my jaw hit the floor and I was like, you know what? That’s infinitely better than what I’m doing today. And then I made an emotional decision on that day to ditch my current systems and stand up for Infusionsoft. And I wish I’d known you at that point, Chris, because I really needed someone to, like, tap on the shoulder, say, calm down for the needs of your business and your strategy, your system. I was used so I was using Alibaba and I was using A.W. Pro Tools, which was another form. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just moving people from one place to another, you know, when they after that, after the time trades, they would move to another list. So yeah it was fine. Is nothing wrong with it. So but yeah. So I decided to jump into it this often because I’m impulsive, I tend to do a bit of things at Berkeley. So I not only bought Infusionsoft, I also signed up for the Egyptians support the training without any real concept of what I was going to do it.

Rob Drummond: [00:13:40] If I could go out there. Either way, that’s a lot. And it did the part, the training and I signed up as a partner.

Rob Drummond: [00:13:45] And so I ended up with a business that was not only selling Google, I was selling Google out. I was selling Infusionsoft, I was implementing Infusionsoft services. I was doing too many things. One of my first Infusionsoft clients was a company that trained mountain guides and they were using Infusionsoft Fermat automation since they weren’t doing anything that clever. It was just a sequence. And there were about fifty emails in this sequence and they just tell stories and they tell stories about the experience of being on the mountain and how the founders Queensway and this this was a very expensive program. This was, you know, invest 100000 dollars, go to Patagonia for three years and learn how to become, you know, a really great mountain. Got ill when you could escape the office. That’s that sort of thing. And it was working and they weren’t doing anything fancy. But I realized it was the stories that they were telling in between. So I kind of helped them expand on their story. So I would I would interview the business editor, the interview, and did different things that he told that told me anecdotally. And I was like, oh, yeah, we’ve got to trade imbalance. This one that Ratatat into the sequence and freed of his time to kind of do a lot of stuff because he was busy.

Rob Drummond: [00:14:56] So, yeah. So I just noticed as well it’s there is the story there again. But at that point I still thought that storytelling was like a dark horse that you had. You didn’t you couldn’t systematically, you know. So decode it. I follow a bicycle, Señor Sousa, he runs psycho tactics and he was running a storytelling course in Amsterdam, so I thought, well, I’ll go. So I went to this course in Amsterdam and I think there were about 15 people at his course with all most of us relatives and some white, some copywriters, some authors. And it became very clear to me that Shawn had a practice he was able to teach. And we all went through this. It was a three day course impact. My thinking about this really will make the same mistakes. We all stumbled in the same places and we all emerged with the same skill. And I was like, well, that’s great, because I can now decode anyone that actually connects storytelling. And I realized that actually we’re all real storytellers. Everyone in that room was a storyteller because we’re all human.

Rob Drummond: [00:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. And so I got home. I can buy insurance out some of my own ideas. And that was my first work group, which was the prototype of my current offer. So I went through that with like three students. I just got a few people on the list to sign up for it. And they went through the steps. And then about halfway through the course I said, OK, write me a demo.

Rob Drummond: [00:16:24] And they all they all felt I basically saw somebody kind of blow across my screen. So, you know, we we kind of made some changes to the process. And that was that was four years ago. So since then, I’ve been kind of putting people through the course of refining the process, working with business owners as well to help them tell their story. So it’s a process for that, extracting this story, getting into a usable form. One development that we’ve had in the last year, actually, from listening to your podcast has been using our table to kind of organize documents and tag stories that you might want to tell so that you’ve got this you’ve got this er table of stories. So actually for every copywriter you hire in the future, you don’t have to brief them. You have to spend hours briefing them all over again to let them be story you. Just some of the, you know, it’s already there.

Rob Drummond: [00:17:12] So that’s the direction we’re going in. So it’s been a long road.

Chris Davis: [00:17:15] But yeah, this is really good, Rob. And I’m glad that you shared it, because often time, especially when people are getting started to mistakes they make one is you look.

Chris Davis: [00:17:30] And you’re beginning you look at somebody else’s finish and you compare the two and it’s like, hey, look, this person is making ten, ten thousand dollars a week and you’re just getting started out and you compare their finish to your start. Right? So it skews it. We all do it. I did it. But the second piece is you have to be willing.

Chris Davis: [00:17:54] You know, when I listen to your story, Rob, you were willing to do beyond what was required. Right. And explore other areas. It’s one of the things that served me well when I was at startups, you know? Yeah, I’m in marketing and I’m leading these departments. But I always ventured over into the graphic designers and the engineers and the finance folks just to see because you never know. One exposure to an area of life in business can change your path forever for the better, you know. So for you to be able to say, hey, look, well, how can I improve the sales people’s life, I’ll just do this. And then from that, you’re now training these people on the job, which is building a muscle towards technology. So when you start to continue to navigate through your career and you end up as storytelling, as a copywriter, you’re this really unique person because you’ve got this technical background because you were willing to just figure it out. And I think not enough people commit to the process of figuring it out. They want the one trick pony that works now. And if it doesn’t work now, they’re like, OK, I’m done because this is what I was supposed to do. Instead of letting that experience inform them, you know, to get closer to what they could they could become or do.

Rob Drummond: [00:19:15] I think it’s about having an all around holistic approach and then a specific thing that you do, unless you’ve got the of these qualities, different holes and spoken to the different departments, you have the holistic approach. A not holistic approach is what makes you a problem solver because you see the bigger picture as well.

Chris Davis: [00:19:34] Yeah, absolutely. And it takes the open mind. So one of the reasons why I wanted you on the podcast was because I feel like. Copywriters are not valued enough, early enough in business, and for automation to work, your messaging has to work. OK, you know, I talk about data, you know, there’s no automation without information and marketing being the bloodline of your business and your marketing should be automatically fed through your system. Right. So I’ve got all these sayings around automation, but one area that that I haven’t highlighted enough is messaging. And and here’s my experience with messaging. When I started at Lead Pages, I could care less about copy. In fact, Rob, I didn’t even know copy was called copy. People kept saying copy. Like what? Copy what? What. Like, literally like what am I supposed to be copying into until you learn it? And Clay, the CEO of Lead pages at the time, Clay was obsessed with great copywriters. Not good, not not better than average, but great copy writers. And the one specific her name is Kat Kat Von Maur. She was the primary copywriter when I started. And Rob, if I if I could explain the length of Scruton t every email, every landing page, every form of copy that touched the public eye, it had to be perfect. Right. And as an Automator, I’m just like, look, just give me the email. I’m ready. When you are just saying get over, you know, I’m ready to build man.

Chris Davis: [00:21:20] But there’s all these checks and balances in and I never quite understood it till later when I matured in my marketing at Lead pages. But from landing pages to everything, he just gave a certain level of detail and he would say it all the time. If you want a successful business, get copywriters, get somebody to write the copy and you will be amazed at how much easier success is to be found. And it’s to be true. If I talk about segmentation, what good is segmentation and you being able to send a targeted message to anybody in your database at the right time if that message isn’t effective? And I think it’s a big black hole. Let me not say black hole, I think it’s a big oversight for marketers who can buy free, can buy software inexpensively, can get free tools. Right. And can get results without some level of investment. But when it comes to their messaging, they’re just like, oh, I’ll write my own e-mails or I can do that. Or, you know, they’ll try to copy and paste some other gurus emails. So copywriting is extremely important. When did you realize that, you know what, this funnel stuff people are talking about, it doesn’t work without copy.

Chris Davis: [00:22:36] What was that aha for you?

Rob Drummond: [00:22:38] Well, I’m a writer, so I’ve always had thought because as a writer, I’m I love the satellite and beautiful voice in prose. So I’ve always had the opinion that the writing is what kind of what sells. I have two comments and what you just said.

Rob Drummond: [00:22:54] What is it? There are lots of people looking for magic solutions and buying and buying things.

Rob Drummond: [00:23:01] I don’t know if we want to pick on particular markets, but buying people like Frank earns cash machine. I have a number of clients who have bought that system, and it’s a perfectly good system in terms of the structure that it provides.

Rob Drummond: [00:23:12] But it comes preloaded with emails. And what I’ve seen for the clients I work with, especially UK based clients, is that those emails do not work for UK based Moylan’s because it isn’t your voice. So am I. You know what? You could switch your content. You could keep the structure. The structure is good in terms of the progression that it pushes people to, but it’s got to be your it’s got to be your voice. Give a thing that people do is like if you if you if you let’s say you just segmented your database and you and you ready to go and send people an email. And it’s like the emails almost they almost got written as an afterthought. And it’s like you open up the email that it’s having Infusionsoft active campaign and it’s the blank screen and it’s it’s too late. It’s like at that point you’ve already lost, you know, it’s like so I’ve spent a number of years as a Bugalugs consultant, so much like a mistake. People making Google ads is writing ads in the words interface. It’s like you have to assemble, you have to assemble the raw materials before your opinions of its interface. And it’s not going to work. So. So, yes. So I guess to answer your initial question, it’s like I guess I’ve always kind of that I’ve I’ve always believed that the copyright is kind of first I kind of view marketing as as a communications solution. It’s a solution to the problem of distance, because if you are like an artisan and we’re all trading locally and you didn’t travel anywhere, you kind of you wouldn’t need marketing because you would just spit you just face to face was seen as like the railway and the telegram came along. You could suddenly sell to people who say, a train ride away in Liverpool instead of Manchester or wherever it is. So suddenly you couldn’t be face to face. So you are running you to become the products.

Rob Drummond: [00:24:55] So now we’re all on zoom calls are in different parts of the world. And, you know, everyone’s everyone’s got like a personal profile. And it’s like what? People have to also trust you. So the need for marketing is now probably more greater than ever was, especially in this year, where suddenly more people are now, you know, doing stuff online. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:25:17] Well, that’s that’s 100 percent accurate, and when I think about it, Rob, you know, the connection between writing copy or messaging, messaging and your marketing, one of the things comes to light that you you focus on, and that is storytelling. I think that. Storytelling is so is so fundamental that people just look over it and a lot of people are looking for tricks and trick and tactics and in catchy headlines that they don’t understand the true power of story. But I was always told, even from birth, the first thing that a child remembers is through stories. So from Dr. Seuss books are, you know, would you are reading these these books that your your parents were reading where naturally we naturally gravitate to stories. That’s why movies are big. That’s why, you know, a good book is irreplaceable in anybody’s life. Yet when you turn on the marketing, the story takes a back seat. And we try to persuade you know, we try to convince. We try to monetize when speak speak for a moment. On the power of storytelling and some of the results that you’ve seen when people implement it within their marketing.

Chris Davis: [00:26:47] I think it’s the difference between rational, false, unemotional thoughts and this is assumption that, you know, prospects opt in and you send them your best information and they will consume that information and they will decide to buy. And that’s true. That’s only true for a subset of people who have who are already very close to buying for people who are a little bit further away. This an emotional decision that has to happen first and for some products more than others, I think for like, you know, coaching services, for instance, that is quite it’s ultimately always an emotional purchase and not the emotion has to precede the rationality and we justify it lets you go. And so you still you still need to know the story doesn’t replace the concepts, but it has to kind of come before the contents for someone to emotionally decide, yes, I trust this guy to trust this person. Yeah. And I, I, I buy into what they’re doing. So so yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s kind of how that I also kind of think that storytelling is the oldest way that knowledge gets passed along from generation to generation. And this, this predates I think this even predates your written language. You know, when the first so I’ve got a section in my book about when the first humans arrived in Europe. They’re already a species of human called Neanderthals who were already here. And effectively Neanderthals were better suited, sort of cold environments. They were better known as, you know, they in theory had better resources, but human. But but Homo sapiens survived. Neanderthals didn’t. I thought, why? Why is that? Obviously, we don’t know. And it’s pure speculation. But there have been there is a lion man carving that was found preserved in a park in Slovakia.

Rob Drummond: [00:28:37] And they’ve carbon dated this and it dates from about thirty thousand B.C. And they also found another Linman in another bog and I think in Germany, somewhere about 30 kilometers away. So these two identical limón, 30 kilometers away. And, well, that shed’s it’s it’s it’s qaid symbols, shared understanding and probably a shared culture shared to us. And I said, well, this isn’t just I think I think storytelling was once a core survival technique. It’s how we pass knowledge from one generation onto another, which is why you know, what a story comes along. We pay attention to it. It’s what gets your attention. It’s it’s it’s like, well, so why the stories? And I think I think that’s why it’s the way that we would have words and do Ludd is that, you know, sort of Western highly rationalized perspective on the world. We’ve kind of lost track of it. So I think that’s why it tends to get sidelined. And I think in terms of results, I think if you come to mind, I think probably the amount of training school I mentioned, what they were sort of taking completely cultural aspects and saying, hey, are you bored of the office still climbing and change your life? Well, we’ll take you to Patagonia. And you know that they built a really successful business. They were doing cold banner ads on Google Display Network, adding people to Infusionsoft who didn’t know what they were generating. Now, they obviously had an offline sales process where people would apply because you wanted to make sure people were vote for the program. But, you know, it was a significant, you know, hundred thousand dollar investments. So, yeah, I mean, you know, this stuff works.

Chris Davis: [00:30:16] Yeah. Yeah. And I know we talk, you know, about this stuff and it’s really about that that like, no interest factor. Right. What have you seen about storytelling that just really disarms people? Because I feel like here’s what I feel like, Rob. When you can tell somebody trying to get you to like them, trust them or no know them, it has the opposite effect on a lot of people. Some people are just blind. They don’t know. They’re just like, oh, I just like them, you know? But for most people, even if they’re not aware of it, there’s like this in unconscious bias to not trust. Right. When I know you’re trying to make me trust you, you come off as inauthentic, right? When I know you’re trying to make me like you. I don’t want to like you, you know. So it it appears, you know, on the surface to me that storytelling does some disarming of some magnitude. Is that what you’ve seen in terms of how it is perceived on the on the receiving end?

Rob Drummond: [00:31:17] Yeah, because you can’t trust anyone who’s flawless and perfect, because we all we all know that we’re not flawless and perfect. So so it’s the vulnerability behind an authentically tell story. So I see a lot of stories in marketing being used as a bit of a gimmick. It’s like an attention grabber. You see these Facebook ads. It’s some guy standing in front of a helicopter he’s just hired. And it’s a it’s a switching story. It’s like, oh, I was so poor. I was I was on my last. You know, three boys eating beans outside its head, and then I discovered this secret and just your email address, I will share my simple secret with you.

Rob Drummond: [00:31:56] I mean, I don’t trust you.

Rob Drummond: [00:32:01] It’s not it’s not authentic. And I think I think this this ties into a point where I think you have to consider the placements of these stories as well, because you can only tell you can only tell your personal story to someone once they have your attention, which means things like podcasts are a good way of doing it. Email is a good way of doing it because email. Email is a warm medium. You know, people opt in and they confirmed their email address. They already opt in for something else. And then you tell them your story. Yeah, it doesn’t it doesn’t really work on Facebook unless you’re doing Facebook retargeting and it can work. Sure. Sure. But, you know, it’s like if you just walk down like a busy high street and you start to drop in people and you start telling them your personal story, people are going to think you are absolutely nuts. Whereas if you if you just met someone and you met them in the High Street, you’ve agreed to go to a coffee shop for a drink with them. They’ve consensus. They’ve agreed to go to that coffee shop with you. And they want to they’re interested in what you have to offer then. Yeah. Then that’s the time that you tell the story in the literal sense. So you don’t necessarily just bamboozle people with this. You know, I think on a recent podcast episode, you were talking about growth levers. And I think for the right businesses, this is this is a growth lever. It’s not one that you pulled repeatedly every time.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:19] It doesn’t doesn’t have the same effect here. Once you once you told it, you know, people kind of get a bit bored of it. It’s like, yeah, I just tells the story, Chris. You’re right. You’re right.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:31] So, yeah, if anyone selling anyone selling based on trust, I think anyone who has their photo prominently on their website so they could have you and your blue suit on the website. So yeah. Yeah. I don’t like that. It’s like here’s the guy behind the suits.

Chris Davis: [00:33:46] That’s why I want to do something as good. Right. The person behind the presentation.

Rob Drummond: [00:33:52] Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that often in the email series that I’ve helped people create, it’s, it’s, there’s always a voice of the email series and normally it’s the founder. Obviously if it’s a one person business and it’s the factor, you know, that person is the voice of the emails. Yeah. Yeah. They’re much more complex. If it’s a if it’s a group of founders, if it’s slightly bigger company who deposed the voice of the business. So I’ll be doing a bit of work recently with a software company. And the stories that we’ve been telling is so what primeur mostly telling me about this story. But we’re also including some stories from the other founders to kind of bring them out of the shadows and showcase with their background, their expertise, some of what else is going on in the background of who else is behind this products, because ultimately it comes back to, you know, like and trust again. It’s like you can only investors make when more. You know what if you invest in some software, especially if it’s relatively new software like this, you’re more likely to be more forgiving of some of the bugs and some of the issues. If you understand the story, you just give people a bit more time. So, yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:34:56] Yeah, absolutely. No, this is great. And again, it’s a great reminder for those who are a bit more savvy in marketing and it’s a great introduction to the importance of copywriting and not just copywriting, but storytelling in in your copywriting. As we close out here. Rob, what what are you up to and where can people connect with you?

Rob Drummond: [00:35:21] Yes. So I’ve got a course available for a few years called Nurturing My Mastery, which teaches email marketers how to write stories of self. And so what I’m doing this year is I’m changing things around. So we’re going to do a live cohort so the course isn’t currently available. It’s going to be we’re going to be doing a live cohort where we take on a group of students. So effectively you go through the current course, we’d have more access to me in the life training. And we’re also going to pair people up into accountability partners because it’s the accountability to actually actually keep people writing and especially with you also running a business. Yeah, yeah. I, I’ve sort of seen that this is a valuable skill for business owners. There’s a lot of business owners who are taking out the trash and trying to outsource. Like it’s like it should be outsourcing the trash and writing your own copy until your business hits a particular level when there’s a lever somewhat higher up that you can pull. So, yes, so we’re going in the spring. I’m just finalizing dates on that. But yeah, if you’re okay with me leaving a link, it’s yeah, absolutely. And we’ll include it in the show notes. We’ll, we’ll include the resource in the show. Yeah. It’s a storycopywriting.com and if people follow the links on that page this is more information.

Chris Davis: [00:36:40] Great. Great. Well Rob again, thank you for coming on to the podcast and helping. Collectively really shine a light on on storytelling and copywriting that that is should again, everybody who’s listening is hard, is hard to find a good copywriter. It really is. So when you find one that not, you know, Rob, again, you’ve got some technical chops, too, so you can write from the perspective of their voice and also understanding how it’s going to be sent out. OK, well, if it’s two days between this one, you’ll want to do this or, you know, like that. That’s rare, man.

Rob Drummond: [00:37:23] You can never disentangle questions of implementation. So the copy always will always ask you about. And then when I train copywriters or business owners to tell a story, the next question, the next question is what email system should I use? You know, invariably so. So you can’t you can’t completely pull it apart. Yeah.

Chris Davis: [00:37:40] You know, we’re we’re eternally intermingled. They will not be compartmentalized. And really, they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t. So anyways, thanks again, Rob, for for coming on to the podcast.

Chris Davis: [00:37:54] Man is greatly appreciated. Yeah, it’s great. Really enjoyed it. Thanks.

Chris Davis: [00:37:58] Thank you for listening to this episode of the All Systems Go podcast. Did you enjoy hearing Rob’s story as well as the power of storytelling? I’m going to tell you this, Rob is not going to be the last copywriter and the last professional that we have on this podcast about storytelling. I think that it is so instrumental to master this art, not just not just in your email, everybody, but on your website and any type of messaging that touches your customer, your prospect, your your audience. You really need to master master the art of art, of harnessing storytelling, because it’s just so innate. It’s just so natural from children. We talked about in the podcast, we’re just drawn to stories. So expect to hear about more of this from more professionals going forward. Furthermore, who needed to hear this? Who has unclear messaging? When you go to their Web site, you just can’t figure out what they do. On the flip side, who has really strong messaging? When you go to their website, it just communicates so clear, like, wow, they they really they really do a good job with drawing me in and explaining clearly exactly what they do and how it benefits. Share this with both of them. Share this with both.

Chris Davis: [00:39:23] For the for the latter, this will be affirming. It will give them confidence in knowing, OK, we made the right decision going this way with with how we display our story on on our website, but more so for those who are struggling a bit, finding your voice, finding your story and how to tell it in a compelling way. Make sure that you share today’s podcast with them. All right. Now, here at Automation Bridge, we’re dedicated, I would say it’s my life’s work. It’s my life’s work to to train digital marketing professionals, to navigate more and more accurately in the the small business and enterprise space. And providing the service of automation is a skill that is becoming more and more high demand. So small businesses, these small businesses and enterprises are in dire need, dire need of marketers that have that ability. And if that’s you, if you’re listening to the podcast and you’re like, man, I that’s what I want to do. I want to build these systems. I want to I want to connect with the copywriter and take their copy and put it in a system to display it to the masses in an automated fashion. Well well, that’s a telltale sign that you may have what it takes to become an automation service provider.

Chris Davis: [00:40:39] So if if you want to talk to somebody on my team and really start to fill out, if this if our program would be a good fit for you, if you’re looking to start a career or have a agency or you just want to be a professional at marketing automation, there’s really one place to go and you’re already here. So if you want to take the next step and again talk to somebody from my team or myself to see if our program will be a good fit to get you on the path to becoming an automation service provider and potentially certification. I want you to go to automationbridge.com/asp. That’s automationbridge.com/asp. Listen, the time is now. The time is now. I’m looking for people who know what they want to do. They know where they want to go and they’re ready to go. They’re ready to go. There’s no convincing on my part. There’s no selling. There’s no tactics and persuasion. This is simply, you know what you want. And I know I have the vehicle to get you there. So I’m looking forward to connecting with any of you who say, hey, look, my hand is raised.

Chris Davis: [00:41:54] Chris, just show me the way I just showed you the way automationbridge.com/asp . All of the show notes and any resources mentioned in this podcast are all available at Automationbridge.com/podcast. You can subscribe there and listen to all the other episodes at your leisure. So until next time I see you on line automate responsibly friends.